TN: Two and Three (Dec 7, 2017)

Guillaume Gilles should be your man in Cornas although those prices might be going culty soon as well. Balthazar Chaillots is another candidate esp. on account of the centenarian vines, although it seems very difficult to grok young.
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Guillaume Gilles should be your man in Cornas although those prices might be going culty soon as well. Balthazar Chaillots is another candidate esp. on account of the centenarian vines, although it seems very difficult to grok young.

Yeah Gilles is where it is at. Headed towards $80 retail though. I've also liked Balthazar, but not quite as much and it isn't available locally.

Besides, Eric's wines service most of my syrah needs.
 
Tell me what Gilles to try, and I will go for it.

Levet after 3 full days open: back to life. Now a berry/yogurt smoothie with strong citrus flavors and plenty of zesty acidity. A little reminiscent of the ‘13 St Joseph from ferme sept lunes from 10 days ago. It’s interesting but still a bit lactic. Should be one pour left.
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
The straight Cornas is the one you want. For QPR, CdR "Les Peyrousses," old vines from the flats around Cornas.

Dunno about QPR. FL retail should be around $45 so even discounted it's not "cheap", value is another thing. The Cornas FL retail would be $65-75 based on my wholesale price through the Rosenthal distributor. That would make it a shade under $60 discounted.

That said, very good wines and better than anything else from Cornas in that price range, IMO.
 
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
The straight Cornas is the one you want. For QPR, CdR "Les Peyrousses," old vines from the flats around Cornas.

Dunno about QPR. FL retail should be around $45 so even discounted it's not "cheap", value is another thing. The Cornas FL retail would be $65-75 based on my wholesale price through the Rosenthal distributor. That would make it a shade under $60 discounted.

That said, very good wines and better than anything else from Cornas in that price range, IMO.

I've been getting Balthazar Chaillots for less than that. You not a fan?

Mark Lipton
 
I think you are asking Nathan, but I personally have not been that thrilled, much less blown away, by the Balthazar or Paris wines. Gilles, I have not tried.
 
Last 2014 Levet update: 8 days open. I poured a very generous last glass into a Riedel Vinum Bordeaux stem. The lactic note has disappeared but this has not fallen apart in the least after over a week at room temp. Quite impressive that and demonstrates resistance to oxidation from a structure based on lightish (apparent) tannins. Showing more classic traditional Syrah nose (stemmy traditional that is) but still a feral hint. Has a quality that Josh Raynolds (probably lurking) might call pastille, but for me reflects an aromatic and textural creaminess from old vines. Mellow violets. Purple fruit.

Encouraging and interesting experience. For those who cellar this, I wouldn’t touch until about 2024, or even later. Then reassess.
 
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
Encouraging and interesting experience. For those who cellar this, I wouldn’t touch until about 2024, or even later. Then reassess.
Levet is good, traditional stuff but you do have to wait for it. Thanks for the diligence.
 
Let me continue my Syrah Therapy. This thread, some old threads on Wine Berserkers where Disorder descended (including the thread I just found entitled insultingly “Does Texier suck?”), my own amateurish thoughts on winemaking, and what will be lost to me personally given my understanding that Marcel Juge has stopped making wine have all lead me to one place. I want to know how people like Allemand, Levet, Gilles, Benetiere, Ferme de Sept Lunes, Gonon, J-M Stephan, Paris, Balthazar, and Barge make their Syrah wines—the details about the what, how, and why and the historical development. Similarly to the way Eric has developed his own practices based in part on the practices of Juge, Verset, Gentaz, and others and explained them in detail on the boards over the years. (I could make a list here of topics of interest — viticultural and sorting practices, whole cluster versus destemming, fermentation, aging .... It seems to me that particularly the management of the fermentation process has a profound effect on Syrah wines.) But details at the level I’m interested in are almost impossible to find on the internet for these folks. I’ve only seen snippets.

Nathan, Keith, others, does your knowledge run this deep? Where does one find this information other than during a long visit to the cellar?
 
Visit early and often. You may be surprised on what you find. Carbonic Maceration is a thing. And not a thing confined to "modernists" like Stephan.

There is certainly non-linearity in the approach of the names you mentioned.

Seriously, if you want to really understand Cornas or Cote Rotie, go there. Walk the vineyards. Meet the people. It's beyond enlightening and a tremendous experience. You will understand what makes Cornas, Cornas. And likewise, why St. Joseph is so diverse (it is a HUGE appellation, in context). What is Crozes-Hermitage? When you see it, you will understand.

Second-hand knowledge is useless, IMHO. It's always colored by opinion.
 
One possibly useful way to parse the practices is along a continuum that goes from semi-carbonic/whole cluster on one extreme (Allemand, Stephan) to conventional/100% destemmed on the other (Texier does conventional fermentation, but I don't know about his destemming practices, ditto for Juge), with conventional/whole cluster falling in-between. But there will be still considerable variation in extraction, maceration length, maturity of picking, oak usage, élevage, etc., that only visits can sort out.
 
originally posted by mlawton:


Second-hand knowledge is useless, IMHO. It's always colored by opinion.

Without arguing that firsthand information is always best, it is also always anecdotal. The other word for second hand knowledge is research and it does have its uses.
 
JLL's latest tome will provide much of the detail you seek. To properly visualize that continuum of practices, you'd ideally need a 4-dimensional graph, with fermentation on one axis (CM to semi-carbonic to full crush), sulfur use on a second axis, cooperage on a third axis and grapes on a fourth (SM to specific clone). I suppose that vine age could constitute a fifth axis. I suspect that your mentioned producers would form a constellation within that graph, but I'm sure that cluster analysis would prove fruitful.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by mlawton:


Second-hand knowledge is useless, IMHO. It's always colored by opinion.

Without arguing that firsthand information is always best, it is also always anecdotal. The other word for second hand knowledge is research and it does have its uses.

I don't agree with the premise, at least in the context of wine, where firsthand information is available. We can't talk to Monet or to Thoreau so research is of course valuable there. But why would you classify a visit to Cornas as anecdotal, not research? Nothing anecdotal about seeing vines, tasting wines and learning from vignerons. Unless, of course, you are not sure your own experience is valid. I'm going to trust my own experiences (i.e. my own firsthand, direct research) much more than anyone else's or anything that's written in a book/online/etc.

If I'm to pick a writer who I think "gets" the Rhone, it would be JLL for sure. But some of what he writes is anecdotal and therefore useless to me. The Remington Norman book was also good with lots of information but unfortunately, some of it was wrong, and most is now dated.

By extension, if I wrote down what I saw, tasted and learned - it should be of limited use to you.
 
originally posted by mlawton:
But why would you classify a visit to Cornas as anecdotal, not research?
Because vignerons tell different stories to different visitors.
Because vignerons might not recall/report the details correctly of a vintage a few years ago if they're not consulting written notes.
 
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