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CWD: 2014 Pépière Muscadet de Sèvre-et-Maine Clisson
- Thread starter VLM
- Start date
robert ames
robert ames
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by robert ames:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
We can only ever hope to agree on ideal closures if we first agree on the ideal rate of oxygen ingress. If that is zero, as SFJoe once told me, then methinks not even the most perfect cork would ever give us that.
Oswaldo,
Was it SFJoe’s view (to your recollection) that all beneficial chemical reactions for bottled wine were anaerobic?
I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have ruled out the (quite distinct) possibility that extremely slow oxygen ingress could have beneficial effects, particularly in the short-to-medium term, but if he believed the ideal ingress to be zero (an opinion that surprised me by its clear-cut certainty, when he usually defaulted to the position that wine involved too many unknowns to be predictable), then all the beneficial (or otherwise) chemical reactions in a zero ingress situation would have to be a mix of anaerobic and whatever aerobic is generated by the dollop of air between the liquid and the stopper (assuming the wine was not vacuum-bottled).
the dollop of "air" in the neck of the bottle is not air, but is usually nitrogen (inert) or in some cases argon (inert), depending on what the bottle is sparged with at bottling.
Yet, I'm going to take a wild stab at this: most of the wines I drink, many of those consumed by posters on this board and, surely, Oswaldo are likely never sparged.
because. . . . ?
originally posted by robert ames:
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by robert ames:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
We can only ever hope to agree on ideal closures if we first agree on the ideal rate of oxygen ingress. If that is zero, as SFJoe once told me, then methinks not even the most perfect cork would ever give us that.
Oswaldo,
Was it SFJoe’s view (to your recollection) that all beneficial chemical reactions for bottled wine were anaerobic?
I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have ruled out the (quite distinct) possibility that extremely slow oxygen ingress could have beneficial effects, particularly in the short-to-medium term, but if he believed the ideal ingress to be zero (an opinion that surprised me by its clear-cut certainty, when he usually defaulted to the position that wine involved too many unknowns to be predictable), then all the beneficial (or otherwise) chemical reactions in a zero ingress situation would have to be a mix of anaerobic and whatever aerobic is generated by the dollop of air between the liquid and the stopper (assuming the wine was not vacuum-bottled).
the dollop of "air" in the neck of the bottle is not air, but is usually nitrogen (inert) or in some cases argon (inert), depending on what the bottle is sparged with at bottling.
Yet, I'm going to take a wild stab at this: most of the wines I drink, many of those consumed by posters on this board and, surely, Oswaldo are likely never sparged.
because. . . . ?
low-tech winemaking
robert ames
robert ames
if sparging bottles is hi-tech i was unaware of that.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by robert ames:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
We can only ever hope to agree on ideal closures if we first agree on the ideal rate of oxygen ingress. If that is zero, as SFJoe once told me, then methinks not even the most perfect cork would ever give us that.
Oswaldo,
Was it SFJoe’s view (to your recollection) that all beneficial chemical reactions for bottled wine were anaerobic?
I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have ruled out the (quite distinct) possibility that extremely slow oxygen ingress could have beneficial effects, particularly in the short-to-medium term, but if he believed the ideal ingress to be zero (an opinion that surprised me by its clear-cut certainty, when he usually defaulted to the position that wine involved too many unknowns to be predictable), then all the beneficial (or otherwise) chemical reactions in a zero ingress situation would have to be a mix of anaerobic and whatever aerobic is generated by the dollop of air between the liquid and the stopper (assuming the wine was not vacuum-bottled).
the dollop of "air" in the neck of the bottle is not air, but is usually nitrogen (inert) or in some cases argon (inert), depending on what the bottle is sparged with at bottling.
Yet, I'm going to take a wild stab at this: most of the wines I drink, many of those consumed by posters on this board and, surely, Oswaldo are likely never sparged.
Quite my suspicion too. Never heard of a real McCoy natural winemaker going inert, except on the final knell.
If a winemaker wanted zero aerobic interactions throughout the life of a bottle, it might be a waste of money to sparge if they didn't use airtight screwcaps. Some time ago Jeff reported on Ponsot switching to closures that allow entry at a controlled rate; I suspect this desire would be far more common among (artisanal?) winemakers than a desire for zero ingress and zero dollop.
According people I've spoken with on this subject (SFJoe not among them IIRC) the presumption is that the less oxygen ingress the better. In this view, cork was simply the best technology for the task that the 18th Century had to offer. Evidence to support this view comes from wine pulled out of sunken ships that had aged for decades in an effectively anaerobic environment. Reports are that such wine had aged remarkably well. Arguing against that view are the mechanisms for tannin polymerization that have been proposed, all of which require oxygen (even the "non-oxidative" ones).
Mark Lipton
Mark Lipton
Interesting article. http://www.decanter.com/wine-news/opinion/jefford-on-monday/jefford-on-monday-debating-diam-8087/
It's incumbent on the new kid to prove their functionality. If they really want to prove efficacy to their audience they'd join the many many trade tastings out there with older wines corked with both natural and Diam stoppers and let people do side by side tastings and draw their own conclusions. It wouldn't be hard.
I have tasted older wines under Diam and I always suspect they would be something more under natural.
I am not crazy about drinking wine that's been in contact with polyurethane and acrylate for years.
I still stand by my earlier comment - why does Diam have to be the standard for fine wines subject to aging? Let all the crap mainstream wines use Diam - and allow the premium cork providers come back to the fore with cleaner corks.
How is it that the level of knowledge around all these questions, air infiltration through corks, etc. is so low given all the various schools of enology, etc.? Seems like these dynamics would be well understood.
It's incumbent on the new kid to prove their functionality. If they really want to prove efficacy to their audience they'd join the many many trade tastings out there with older wines corked with both natural and Diam stoppers and let people do side by side tastings and draw their own conclusions. It wouldn't be hard.
I have tasted older wines under Diam and I always suspect they would be something more under natural.
I am not crazy about drinking wine that's been in contact with polyurethane and acrylate for years.
I still stand by my earlier comment - why does Diam have to be the standard for fine wines subject to aging? Let all the crap mainstream wines use Diam - and allow the premium cork providers come back to the fore with cleaner corks.
How is it that the level of knowledge around all these questions, air infiltration through corks, etc. is so low given all the various schools of enology, etc.? Seems like these dynamics would be well understood.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
originally posted by BJ:
How is it that the level of knowledge around all these questions, air infiltration through corks, etc. is so low given all the various schools of enology, etc.? Seems like these dynamics would be well understood.
Ditto for the common cold.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Champagne corks are held together with polyurethane. Jeffords said it and it is easy to google up.originally posted by BJ:
I am not crazy about drinking wine that's been in contact with polyurethane and acrylate for years.
Also, Diam has this response to you.
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Champagne corks are held together with polyurethane. Jeffords said it and it is easy to google up.originally posted by BJ:
I am not crazy about drinking wine that's been in contact with polyurethane and acrylate for years.
Also, Diam has this response to you.
Champagne cork assembly are more nuanced than that. The face against the wine is pure cork.
Well, apparently after ten years Diam saw clear to switch to a natural binder, I wonder why.
My other questions remain.
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Champagne corks are held together with polyurethane. Jeffords said it and it is easy to google up.originally posted by BJ:
I am not crazy about drinking wine that's been in contact with polyurethane and acrylate for years.
Also, Diam has this response to you.
Actually, this part: "the new closure incorporates a beeswax emulsion," probably concerns me more than most of you. Beeswax is where pesticide residues concentrate in the hive. It surely has some role in colony collapse, as many studies have noted. When studying natural/Biodynamic beekeeping with a number of people, I learned to get rid of the comb every year (crushing it to release the honey), then letting the bees build new, natural comb from a top bar, which is considered by most to be hygienic behavior.
originally posted by BJ:
So you mean to tell me our beeswax candles are volatilizing nasties into our indoor air? Great.
A culprit of bee deaths has clearly been proven to be neonics. That said, they are large molecules, so I'm not really sure that you'd be breathing them as they are not that volatile. Perhaps those with greater knowledge, such as Prof Lipton, would care to comment.
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by BJ:
So you mean to tell me our beeswax candles are volatilizing nasties into our indoor air? Great.
A culprit of bee deaths has clearly been proven to be neonics. That said, they are large molecules, so I'm not really sure that you'd be breathing them as they are not that volatile. Perhaps those with greater knowledge, such as Prof Lipton, would care to comment.
The combustion process would remove any neonics from the candle effluent, so no worries. They also are relatively non-toxic to mammals (cf. parathion). The role of neonics in colony collapse is complex: at sublethal doses they make bees more vulnerable to mites and other pathogens. Fun fact: my first scientific publication was on the photochemistry of an insecticide candidate that never made it to market (due to instability) but which was almost certainly the first neonic. A colleague of mine at Shell soaked it into a sponge that he placed in a bucket in his horse barn. The next day the bucket was filled with dead horse flies.
Mark Lipton
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
I bought some of the recent 12 Pepiere Thebaud release from Chambers and, on discovering a diam closure (I lack the sophistication to note which number), recalling some bad Roche Blanche history, queried David Lillie (sp?), who, in turn, queried Marc. Word came back that the diams come in a variety of quality levels, and the ones used with the Thebaud sufficiently commanded Marc's confidence - 'nuff said! David observed that he planned to hold his bottles of this wine for the typically outrageous periods over which he normally ages his muscadet, e.g., 10 years plus plus. Fwiw.
Jay Miller
Jay Miller
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
I bought some of the recent 12 Pepiere Thebaud release from Chambers and, on discovering a diam closure (I lack the sophistication to note which number), recalling some bad Roche Blanche history, queried David Lillie (sp?), who, in turn, queried Marc. Word came back that the diams come in a variety of quality levels, and the ones used with the Thebaud sufficiently commanded Marc's confidence - 'nuff said! David observed that he planned to hold his bottles of this wine for the typically outrageous periods over which he normally ages his muscadet, e.g., 10 years plus plus. Fwiw.
Iirc The CRB issues were not with Diams but with plastic corks.
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
I imagine you r more c than I do. Thanks for the response.
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
PS, re: Picq Dessus, I've only had the 2009 - a rich year - and from magnum, most recently in 2017. It struck me that, as the fat recedes, very good Chablis is left behind. 1er Cru quality range, to my buds.
Hey there's an interesting interview by Levi with the CEO of the Diam group. He is a smart guy. I don't change my position about not being willing to be a testing agent with my own personal investment/cellar...I still like the strategy of Diam supplying 90% of the corks and then the natural cork supply quality getting way better thus getting us back to a lower taint %.