TN: Suddenly Ipanema...

[Jeff Grossman]

...a restaurant in NYC's "Little Brazil" district, where Jim and I were having dinner with two friends from New Hampshire. After a round of caipirinhas we ordered food and a bottle of vinho. The he-friend wanted a big red so I chose Quinta dos Murças 2011 Douro Reserva off the list. It had a few years on it so I harbored hopes that some style (other than BANG BANG BANG) may have developed.

Big indeed, lots of tannins fighting with lots of earthy dark-red-berry flavors and a few other soil-inflected flavor notes; the maker's website mentions balsamic and that is a good call. I'd anticipated a texture of thumbtacks but this was surprisingly gentle on the tongue, and I was equally surprised that the 14.5% alcohol did not jump out. Pretty well-behaved for a bruiser. I could drink this again with a table full of steak.

The friend said, "It isn't cab but it's good."

Missão cumprida.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

Bom trabalho!

 

[mark e]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
TN: Suddenly Ipanema...we ordered food and a bottle of vinho. The he-friend wanted a big red . . . and I was equally surprised that the 14.5% alcohol did not jump out. The friend said, "It isn't cab but it's good."

Missão cumprida.

This is a dilemma I often have, as well, though I'm not quite sure I'd like the wine described above. We go out from time to time with good friends. The "he-friend" loves big reds but I don't - and like many of us I can't stand new oak. In fact, he would like to order big reds with shellfish and delicate fish dishes, too, but that's where I draw the line.

Quite honestly, I believe that some folks with different taste don't always know what they really like. Now, I've come up with a few things that seem to appeal while at the same time enjoying them myself.

Dark color is always appreciated by this person so I keep that in mind. I've come to believe that it sometimes "fools" those who love big wines.

Sometimes I've been successful in ordering wines he likes, other times not so much.

Successes include:

Anything from Crozes Hermitage, St Joseph or Cornas + Brézème Pergaud
2014 Foradori Sgarzon Teroldego
Rioja Riserva and Grand Riserva
Barbera and Dolcetto

Failures were anything with lighter color, higher acid and - particularly - no velvety tannins.

Other opinions?

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by mark e:

Quite honestly, I believe that some folks with different taste don't always know what they really like. Now, I've come up with a few things that seem to appeal while at the same time enjoying them myself.

Dark color is always appreciated by this person so I keep that in mind. I've come to believe that it sometimes "fools" those who love big wines.

I know exactly what you mean! I have faced exactly the same thing with some friends and been pleasantly surprised that their self-professed love for 'big' wines is consistent with them enjoying elegant non-new-oak versions of Rioja or Northern Rhone syrah.

I think color plays a role. Plus (at least with my friends), it's perfectly understandable that they do not have a fully-developed wine vocabulary since they don't pay all that much attention to wine geekery details. Years ago I used to try to give them some basic vocabulary and a structure for how to analyze the wine/know what components you like/don't like. But not everything sticks!

 

[Marc D]

Hi Mark,
I have similar friends that love big reds with oak.
My failures with them are Loire Cab Franc, where the nice comments were “so French” and too earthy. Also I fail when I try with most Bourgogne which my friend finds too acidic and light.

Success has included N Rhône Syrah like you mentioned. Also Bordeaux, but there are very few I enjoy or buy anymore, for a lot of reasons.

On a more specific example I’ve had good luck with both wine geeks and the big red group of friends with Mike Dashe’s old vine Louvau Zinfandel. It has great Dry Creek valley fruit without overt oak or over ripeness. It’s lower octane then a majority of CA zin and has all the good features of the grape.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Marc D:
Hi Mark,
I have similar friends that love big reds with oak.
My failures with them are Loire Cab Franc, where the nice comments were “so French” and too earthy. Also I fail when I try with most Bourgogne which my friend finds too acidic and light.

Success has included N Rhône Syrah like you mentioned. Also Bordeaux, but there are very few I enjoy or buy anymore, for a lot of reasons.

On a more specific example I’ve had good luck with both wine geeks and the big red group of friends with Mike Dashe’s old vine Louvau Zinfandel. It has great Dry Creek valley fruit without overt oak or over ripeness. It’s lower octane then a majority of CA zin and has all the good features of the grape.

I've had good luck with Mike Dashe's Les Enfants Terribles series zinfandels, particularly with a bit of age, but there I think the power of suggestion plays a part. My friend sees a California label and is convinced a priori that it'll be good.

I should have mentioned that all these dinners have taken place at their house or at restaurants in Oslo, where I am moving. Purchasing California wine at Vinmonopolet (grammar note to those who think I should have put a "the" before the wine monopoly store: the noun is already in the definite neuter form) is generally too expensive.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

I am not at all surprised that fans of big wines like Northern Rhones, Riojas and Dashe Zinfandels. While the wines aren't goopy, they have bold flavors and the ones that are working probably rest more on fruit than on minerals. Contrasting palates generally have coherent overlaps.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
The he-friend wanted a big red . . . and I was equally surprised that the 14.5% alcohol did not jump out. The friend said, "It isn't cab but it's good."

This is a dilemma I often have, as well, though I'm not quite sure I'd like the wine described above.

It was, effectively, young port with less sugar and alcohol.

There is a time and place for a big wine, just not as often as The Big Wine Lovers say. For example, I like a glass of ruby port with a slab of rare roast beef.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

Not by design, we opened three 15% wines this week at home on different evenings - 2011 Cappellano Piè Rupestris, 2011 Cappellano Piè Franco, and 2012 Bernabeleva Carril del Rey (this last one because Eric Texier had loved it) - and survived quite easily to tell the tale. Perhaps these could volunteer for double duty as well.

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

It's been demonstrated plenty of times that color affects flavor perception, so the dark=big theory makes sense. I think one needs to figure out if the person wants big as in very ripe lush long hangtime fruit, or big as in intense grippy tannic structure. E.G. Turley Zin vs. Ridge York Creek Petite Sirah. Or hot year Priorat vs. cool year Ribera.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
It's been demonstrated plenty of times that color affects flavor perception, so the dark=big theory makes sense. I think one needs to figure out if the person wants big as in very ripe lush long hangtime fruit, or big as in intense grippy tannic structure. E.G. Turley Zin vs. Ridge York Creek Petite Sirah. Or hot year Priorat vs. cool year Ribera.

To be honest, I think "all of the above" would be the answer to your question. Not all palates are able to discern those differences.

And yes, color most definitely affects flavor perception. If any of you don't believe that try blind tasting in black glasses and try to figure out what you are tasting.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

I had a 15% abv 2015 Piedmontese Pinot Nero that was incredible. I could tell you which one, but then I'd have to kill you.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

originally posted by mark e:
like many of us I can't stand new oak.

After years of complaining about new oak, I've softened my position considerably, having given thought to why isolated wines, or groups of wines with plenty of new oak work so brilliantly and represent an important historical heresy in the best sense of the word. None of the new-oaked wines I've liked had low acidity, big alcohol or (worse) residual sugar, or had been chaptalized to death leading (although not necessarily) to one or more of aforementioned symptoms. I still do not go out of my way to seek oak (unless a rare food pairing demands it), no more than I would want to have a 200 grams/liter Vouvray on a regular basis which can also on occasion be outstanding.

Other opinions?

You did ask.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:

originally posted by mark e:
like many of us I can't stand new oak.

After years of complaining about new oak, I've softened my position considerably, having given thought to why isolated wines, or groups of wines with plenty of new oak work so brilliantly and represent an important historical heresy in the best sense of the word. None of the new-oaked wines I've liked had low acidity, big alcohol or (worse) residual sugar, or had been chaptalized to death leading (although not necessarily) to one or more of aforementioned symptoms. I still do not go out of my way to seek oak (unless a rare food pairing demands it), no more than I would want to have a 200 grams/liter Vouvray on a regular basis which can also on occasion be outstanding.

Other opinions?

You did ask.

Yes, but my question really was about how to select wines that would be pleasing to my "big red" friend, yet I would be happy to drink as well. Apart from occasional Bordeaux reds, which clearly had new oak (and, yes, I did enjoy them), I can't think of that many examples - including most Burgundy - that'd I really enjoy drinking now. Plus, Bordeaux is mostly too expensive for me now. I remember bringing a bottle of 1989 Haut Brion to Ch“teau Joe on Leonard St that was enjoyed by all. Who can afford that now?

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
alcoholI had a 15% abv 2015 Piedmontese Pinot Nero that was incredible. I could tell you which one, but then I'd have to kill you.

Now THAT stretches the boundaries of credibility. Not that it was incredible, of course, but that it still pasted like pinot (or all that I hold dear in pinot). I've never tasted one above 13,5%, from anywhere, for which I would risk assassination. The higher they go, the more they seem to speak the esperanto of over-ripeness and become like any other grape.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Not by design, we opened three 15% wines this week at home on different evenings - 2011 Cappellano Piè Rupestris, 2011 Cappellano Piè Franco, and 2012 Bernabeleva Carril del Rey (this last one because Eric Texier had loved it) - and survived quite easily to tell the tale. Perhaps these could volunteer for double duty as well.

Can you say more about them?

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Not by design, we opened three 15% wines this week at home on different evenings - 2011 Cappellano Piè Rupestris, 2011 Cappellano Piè Franco, and 2012 Bernabeleva Carril del Rey (this last one because Eric Texier had loved it) - and survived quite easily to tell the tale. Perhaps these could volunteer for double duty as well.

Can you say more about them?

Shouah.

I wouldn't normally open a Cappellano so young, but I had heard that, somewhat incredibly, the 2011 Rupestris was already open for bizness, so I decided to do a side by side to check whether Augusto has been making them more accessible than they used to be in Teobaldo's day.

Shorrinuff, the 2011 was open, though of course still terribly primary, with classic tar and roses showing themselves quite prettily. Not too tannic, no sign of wood, and no 15% heat. The acidity seemed fine, and did not have that separateness that the added kind can sometimes seem to have. Perhaps the macerations have shortened a bit. I know the agriculture has changed, though I have no particulars. I know Augusto was going to switch to submerged cap, but has only done so since the 2012s.

The Piè Franco, on the other hand, was quite a different beast, much more tannic (the grapes are half the size of the grafted version's). It was closed, and what aroma it did have did not show the classic nebbiolo descriptors. But at least the 15% didn't show, and there was no oakiness. But the other bottle I have will have to undergo the rule of fifteen.

The Bernabeleva is old vina garnacha, also without any apparent oak, and the 15% shows, at most, as mild pepperiness, which reminded Marcia of Syrah (possibly a clue to why Eric liked it so much; and what could be a better Grenache than one that tastes like Syrah, right?). It's surprisingly fruity, and the aroma made me think of blackberry jam, though the fruit does not taste at all jammy. So, a wine to please both Greeks and Trojans.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

Thanks, Oswaldo. I have occasionally found it true that barolo has a short window when it is nice to drink it young. Glad you hit it.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

Though this one probably has a looooooooong window ahead of it.