Wisdom of the Hive

K

Ken Schramm

Ken Schramm
I come seeking counsel yet again.

Influenced by Joe, the Four and many others, I have been loathe to utilize interventions and spoofilation on our meads. Some steps are traditional and debatable at worst, but necessary - pigéage with a punch down tool, for example. There are things we do that I wish we didn't have to that don't line up well with the rest of my mindset on this (the use of nutrients to supplement YAN, lack of gravity feeding for some processes), but there are other guns we stick to that I won't compromise on: real, high quality fruit, responsibly sourced honey, high quality closures. Another one of those is filtration. We have never filtered a single release.

That said, waiting for Mama Nature to pull her solids out of our mead sometimes takes forever, and screws with anticipated schedules and cash flow.

Along comes our handy dandy rep from the centrifuge company. I am of mixed mind. Yes, it is "speeding up time." It is also kicking the living crap out of the mead for a few minutes, and presents internal mechanical opportunities for loss of sanitation. We could use steam, to take advantage of the "nothing hides from heat" philosophy, but I need to know if a centrifuge is steam rated. The sales guy is happy to tell me about the up side. I have to find out about the down side on my own.

The advice of this board on the GAI line recommendation has proven sagacious. I would welcome any comments on this possibility, both process-minded and on principle.

Thanks, KDS
 
Ken, you got a link to the centrifuge being considered? I've never heard of sterilizing a lab centrifuge (suspensions are always within their own container, so no contamination possible). What volume of liquid would you need to centrifuge?

My own bias would be to ask for a trial centrifugation of a small portion of your batch, then a taste test to see what the organoleptic consequences are. I'm not sure that I see a significant benefit of centrifugation vs. filtration but the proof is in the pudding, no?

Mark Lipton
 
Ken,

I use cross-flow filtering on all of my wines (save one).
My experience is that it kicks hell out of the wine for about 24 hours but is unnoticeable thereafter. I have had wines that, after the initial 24 hours, showed better than when they went into the filter. Most simply taste the same.
(I have tried other types of filtering and have not been pleased with the results - although never centrifuge.)
Cross-flow is nominally sterile (not absolute) which also gives me some increased confidence as I do not use much sulphur.

I know nothing of centrifuges and their ilk. It sounds like they would be tougher than cross-flow but that’s just a gut reaction.
There is lots of info on line about cross-flow which may be of assistance.
I will continue to use it because I think it fits the way I make wine and the quality of the product in the hands of the end user.

Best, Jim
 
Mark, here's the unit we are considering:

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www.gea.com

Jim, thanks for the thoughts. We have considered cross-flow, as one of my friends in the industry, Mike Faul at Rabbits Foot, is an advocate. We don't use any sulfur, so I, too, am quite concerned about the sanitation of the parts you can't see.

I haven't tried any of your Pinots yet. They are high on the To Do list.

Yours,
Ken
 
OK, Ken. Safe to say that I've never seen a centrifuge like that, though the principles of operation are quite clear. It doesn't say at what speed it's spinning, nor of how many G-forces it generates, so probably taste testing would be the best method for assessing its impact.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by Ken Schramm:
We don't use any sulfur, so I, too, am quite concerned about the sanitation of the parts you can't see.
Click to expand...

Ken,
‘Not sure of your meaning here but, FWIW, cross-flow filters are sterilized prior to use.

The filtration media used in the cross-flow filters the wine down as small as .03 microns which is even smaller than .04 microns, the recognized standard for “sterile” filtration. However, the flow can vary due to the construction of the filter media so it’s classed as nominal not absolute.

Best, Jim
 
Sorry for the confusion, Jim, I kind of mixed two lines of thought there. I understand the sub 4 micron sterility with the cross flow.

Where the centrifuge is concerned: as with bottling lines and anything that doesn't get disassembled, I worry about the potential for bacterial hold outs in internal tubing, pumps and valves.

Mark: At this point, the manufacturer is saying the way they'd like us to make the comparison of before/after is to demo the unit on site for a month. That will require installation of a 460 3 Phase transformer and wiring, which will cost in the mid four figures to find out if I like the thing, and what it does to/for our mead. They claim that no one has ever returned one after the demo. That may be because no one is willing to write off the five or six grand wrapped up in getting the juice to see if it will work.
 
originally posted by Florida Jim:
Ken,

I use cross-flow filtering on all of my wines (save one).
My experience is that it kicks hell out of the wine for about 24 hours but is unnoticeable thereafter. I have had wines that, after the initial 24 hours, showed better than when they went into the filter. Most simply taste the same.
Click to expand...
Jim's comments accord with my recollection of a number of controlled filtration experiments at Sebastiani Vineyards when I was there in 1990s, although the recovery was slower, from a few days to 2 weeks. In the reds, the tannins were perceived as dryer and more austere for up to a year, but I don't imagine that's an issue for mead.

claim that no one has ever returned one after the demo. That may be because no one is willing to write off the five or six grand wrapped up in getting the juice to see if it will work.
Click to expand...

Isn't the $5-6k for the necessary infrastructure to install a sunk cost? I.E. it doesn't change whether the unit works or not, so it shouldn't affect the decision to return one. That said, I'd still press for Mark's test if feasible. Make sure you set up the taste test to avoid bias, and screen participants with a triangle or duo-trio test.

Speaking of mead, Ayele Solomon is making some terrific stuff at Honey Wine Co: http://www.beedvine.com. He's also a very sharp and friendly guy, so maybe you should contact him for advice.
 
I love Ayele. We have known each other for years, and he is smart and kind and definitely has his heart in the right place. He approached me about a plan to help beekeepers in Ethiopia with equipment and training to upgrade to vastly more productive Langstroth hives, which I think may yet happen if we both have enough business success. No offense at all to Ayele, but I believe there may be a good deal more winemaking experience here on WD.

As far as the 460 drop goes, I would consider it more prospective cost, as every other piece of equipment we have is either 110, 220 single phase or 208/220 3 phase. I otherwise have no use for a 460 3 phase transformer and circuit, and we are likely to move out of our current leased building into one we buy as soon as we can afford it. If I just needed another 220 three phase circuit installed elsewhere in the building, yes, I'd do it in a heartbeat, since that would give me flexibility I don't currently have. At some point in the future, $5-6K in prospective cost will not be a big deal. Maybe it's not a big deal right now, but my mind still hasn't wrapped itself around that concept yet.

Curious to know what you all think of Kermit's recounting of his story about filtration vs non-filtration with '83 Vieux Télégraphes and the Bruniers in "Adventures on the Wine Route"? Yes, N of one and and all. Still...
 
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