Bordeaux

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
I remember your thinking that Cantemerle was just ducky. Is that still the case? I used to like it and it's still not that pricey.
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I am not a big fan of 2006 Cantemerle. When I taste another one I don't like, I'll let you know.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Do you take it to be the exception? Are you just unwilling to generalize? Or are you too addicted to Karl Popper?
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the exception indeed.

I was particularly impressed with what they were able to pull off with 2010, a year that generally appears to violate the principles of what is referred to as a disorderly palate in several of the recent posts.
 
Been a few years since I've had Cantemerle, which I always found satisfying if not profound. The friendlier prices in the profound zone undercut the value proposition somewhat, but I'm glad to hear they're still doing their thing.
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Tuscany I have largely lost interest in. Piedmont I enjoy greatly but it's simply not as functional as Bordeaux or Burgundy (or Rhone or Loire), all of which are fun to drink young, which nebbiolo so seldom is.
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Most people I speak with have lost interest in Tuscany, which is why the value proposition is so strong when it comes to a really great Chianti Classico. Nobody is pricing up the wines. Again, you have to wade through oceans of ok to find the great ones.

Nebbiolo not being fun to drink young is the biggest myth of this wine world moment. That demonstrably false belief is widely shared, but that doesn't make it correct. Bartolo Mascarello Barolo 2012, G. Rinaldi Barolo 2011 (either one), and GB Burlotto Monvigliero Barolo 2011 just being some of the most obvious examples of wines that are so very "crushable" (as the kids like to say) right now. A 750ml bottle of any of those is basically a single serving size for this drinker. That the Piemonte is only Nebbiolo is another widely voiced assertion that is wildly inaccurate.

But if you don't want to drink Italian because you prefer to drink French, that's your choice. I just think that ignoring whole countries is an excellent way to end up paying more for bottles of wine.
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Been a few years since I've had Cantemerle, which I always found satisfying if not profound. The friendlier prices in the profound zone undercut the value proposition somewhat, but I'm glad to hear they're still doing their thing.
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The jury is out. Totally missed a couple of C vintages in the 1990s after failed attempts at comparative analysis at large Bordeaux tastings when they were being released - only to find a decade later that they simply destroy the wines I had preferred that day (some coincidentally mentioned in this thread). Perhaps I just wasn't (am not?) good enough to fight off inevitable palate calibration at tastings, particularly with no food, but I also suspect that C isn't very expressive and quite subtle when young; nor does it impose structure that would at least raise a suspicion of requiring time for any sort of judgement.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:

Nebbiolo not being fun to drink young is the biggest myth of this wine world moment. That demonstrably false belief is widely shared, but that doesn't make it correct. Bartolo Mascarello Barolo 2012, G. Rinaldi Barolo 2011 (either one), and GB Burlotto Monvigliero Barolo 2011 just being some of the most obvious examples of wines that are so very "crushable" (as the kids like to say) right now. A 750ml bottle of any of those is basically a single serving size for this drinker. That the Piemonte is only Nebbiolo is another widely voiced assertion that is wildly inaccurate.
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In partial agreement with this.

Nebbiolo, Barbera, and (to some extent) Dolcetto are indispensable in a household with a balanced diet. Too many hard-learned lessons of trying to pair some of my favorite French wines with Italian cuisine (with tomato-inclusive sauces being a primary but by no means the only issue). Unless you like a wine hitting your palate like a 747 being landed in an 80-mph crosswind.

Having said that, I would not place any of the three Barolos mentioned above on my dinner table, anytime soon. (This does not preclude their being "crushable," so it's perfectly understandable that you'd want to pop them at a party or pair with a good movie). That's what many young-ish Langhe, Lessona, Ghemme, and Friends are for. And in some exceptional circumstances - if you really know what you are doing - a slightly post-adolescent Barbaresco.
 
originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:


Nebbiolo, Barbera, and (to some extent) Dolcetto are indispensable in a household with a balanced diet. Too many hard-learned lessons of trying to pair some of my favorite French wines with Italian cuisine (with tomato-inclusive sauces being a primary but by no means the only issue). Unless you like a wine hitting your palate like a 747 being landed in an 80-mph crosswind.

Having said that, I would not place any of the three Barolos mentioned above on my dinner table, anytime soon. (This does not preclude their being "crushable," so it's perfectly understandable that you'd want to pop them at a party or pair with a good movie). That's what many young-ish Langhe, Lessona, Ghemme, and Friends are for. And in some exceptional circumstances - if you really know what you are doing - a slightly post-adolescent Barbaresco.
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Rarely have I been in such agreement. I'm 100 points on that post. But to those who eschew Italian wines, the pendulum has swung back away from the oak bombs of of the 1990s, so perhaps a re-assessment is in order. As far as enjoyable early drinking Nebbiolo, I'd add Roero. And, with age, Valtellina and Carema. My only misgiving - at times - is alcohol level. When I lived in Piemonte from 1976-1994 one would rarely see Dolcetto above 12.5%; thanks to global warming it is tough to find one that low now. But I much preferred (and still prefer) both Dolcetto and Barbera under 13%. And though many of you will poo poo it, I do enjoy a Pelaverga from time to time.
 
Personally I still love sangiovese based wines from my favorite producers, I just have far fewer options for when to drink them along with many other reds since Arnold can't really have more than a few sips.

A 1988 Fontalloro (though obviously not in the bargain category) was great this past Tuesday.
 
One (for me "the") foremost experts for Italian wine (and also for olive oil, he makes himself a stunning one) in the German speaking world is Andreas Maerz, the editor of a magazine called Merum. He has in many ways a pretty disorderly palate and was always an advocate of no/little wood in Barolo and Barbaresco - and for drinking them and most other Italian wines relatively young. He says he is keen on experiencing the differences in terroir, vintage and vinification, which in his opinion diminish with extended aging.
I can find pleasure in both approaches.
 
So, Jay, I deeply understand wanting to share wine with one's loved ones. But one has to deal with realities. Gail is not fond of Jura reds and mostly won't drink Jura whites, and that does reduce the amount I drink (it is virtually our only divergence, amazingly). But when I want one, I open a bottle for her and one for me, and we drink the amount we do (a half a bottle each a day, to confess), and that allows us both to drink what we want.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
So, Jay, I deeply understand wanting to share wine with one's loved ones. But one has to deal with realities. Gail is not fond of Jura reds and mostly won't drink Jura whites, and that does reduce the amount I drink (it is virtually our only divergence, amazingly). But when I want one, I open a bottle for her and one for me, and we drink the amount we do (a half a bottle each a day, to confess), and that allows us both to drink what we want.
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It's also that my wine drinking during the week is a lot less than it once was. A combination of getting older and of having a late dinner (we usually eat around 8:30 after Arnold gets home). Even without a glass of wine I'm ready to sleep after dinner and don't look forward to taking the dogs for their last walk of the night.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Tuscany I have largely lost interest in. Piedmont I enjoy greatly but it's simply not as functional as Bordeaux or Burgundy (or Rhone or Loire), all of which are fun to drink young, which nebbiolo so seldom is.
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Most people I speak with have lost interest in Tuscany, which is why the value proposition is so strong when it comes to a really great Chianti Classico. Nobody is pricing up the wines. Again, you have to wade through oceans of ok to find the great ones.

Nebbiolo not being fun to drink young is the biggest myth of this wine world moment. That demonstrably false belief is widely shared, but that doesn't make it correct. Bartolo Mascarello Barolo 2012, G. Rinaldi Barolo 2011 (either one), and GB Burlotto Monvigliero Barolo 2011 just being some of the most obvious examples of wines that are so very "crushable" (as the kids like to say) right now. A 750ml bottle of any of those is basically a single serving size for this drinker. That the Piemonte is only Nebbiolo is another widely voiced assertion that is wildly inaccurate.

But if you don't want to drink Italian because you prefer to drink French, that's your choice. I just think that ignoring whole countries is an excellent way to end up paying more for bottles of wine.
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Who said anything about ignoring whole countries??

But de gustibus, again. Obviously there are people out there who can enjoy young nebbiolo. I'm not one of them. There are exceptions to the rule. But it's a *very* reliable rule. Just as obviously, Piedmont makes lots of good wine from other grapes, but I wouldn't include any of them in a conversation about wine we buy for a shot at profundity. I know it's wine-board PC to shun trophy-hunting and praise the humble little gems, but one of my realizations as my cellar ages is that you don't want to hold *too* many science experiments relative to the tried-and-true classics.

Chianti is where my (remaining) Tuscan interest lies. I sold most of my Brunello, but held on to the Chianti (mostly Riecine and Le Boncie). So, having referenced "great ones," how about naming some?
 
If only Burgundy and Bordeaux were fungible, not to speak of Piemont and Tuscany wines. Burgundy is preferred in my household, by a sizable margin. Not that the occasional Bordeaux isn't appreciated (a recent 2002 Leoville Barton bordered on majestic the second day in). We're still figuring out where the Italians fit it.

Current Burgundy pricing is rebarbative, truly. Fortunately, drinking more and more modestly with age, I have most of what I need to satisfy the actuarial tables, and can fill in remaining gaps with affordable backfills.

Whose village wines are paying $100 for, anyway?
 
Shared a 2005 Beausejour Duffau Lagarosse next to a 2010 Pithon Paille Chinon Cabernet Franc over a long talk with Dr. Pat McGovern in Denver on Tuesday night. We both preferred the Pithon Paille. I thought that the BDL might be better the next night. I was wrong.
 
There’s room to have a “French” palate and still cellar and enjoy Italian wines. Although it always seems strange to contemplate grouping at this country level, there it is. I have a French palate too.

I also still regularly cellar Piemonte and some Tuscan wine (although generally not Brunello). Although I tend to like Nebbiolo much better with age, one can drink them young, fight the tannins if there (particularly with the right food), and survive. Whether Barolo or Barbaresco or Lessona or .....

I think I’m dated now in Chianti although I have developed a taste somehow for Vigna del Sorbo in certain vintages that seems strange to me, while I’ve sold off much of my Felsina wines. In the past there have been great wines in my view also from Rampolla, Castell'in Villa, Castallare, Montevertine, and others. I opened a Dr. Fossi CCR from 1962 last year that was very much alive. Drier in the finish on Day One than Day 2 when it kicked into another gear. But Chianti is such a large region that we geeks should really start talking about the subregions. Panzano, Greve, Radda, Berardegna, etc., all have different microclimates, elevation, ...

I’m curious as to Levi’s favorites as well these days and why. And is it ageability that makes them favorites or the characteristics of the young wines.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
GB Burlotto Monvigliero Barolo 2011
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Amen. I drank a bottle of the 2011 on release at a restaurant in Madrid that completely shattered my concept of what young nebbiolo can taste like.

I've loved this wine since discovering some of the 90s vintages with 10+ years of age, but it somehow does seem to have attained a new level in recent vintages. Although it could just be that my palate has become more aligned with it.
Unfortunately the critics seem to have decided that it's the former, and due to the resulting pointiness it's become challenging to acquire without being gouged.

This is why we can't have nice things.
 
If you are drinking wines like Bartolo Mascarello Barolo 2012, G. Rinaldi Barolo 2011, or GB Burlotto Monvigliero 2011 at this time and telling me that those are not ready for enjoyment, you are not paying attention to the actual taste of the wines. It is easy to put conventional wisdom blinders on, but that also prevents you from seeing what is out there. The reality in the bottles is there, and easily verified.

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

Just as obviously, Piedmont makes lots of good wine from other grapes, but I wouldn't include any of them in a conversation about wine we buy for a shot at profundity.
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Keith, I have a lot of respect for you, but that is a ludicrous statement, and frankly shows that you don't know what you are talking about. Sorry.
 
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