Cuozzo/Asimov - strong contrasts

I wonder how often folks play the math game, for example...

Menu $50 bottle with 3X markup = $150

or

BYOB $75 bottle with $75 corkage = $150 (and get [arguably] a better bottle of wine)

Worth considering!

. . . . Pete
 
Pete, as I'm sure you know, not all state laws and not all restaurants support BYOB. Moreover, many if not most restaurant patrons have no cellar of wine to draw upon and/or no confidence in their ability to pick a bottle out in a wine shop.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Er, what natural wines are gonna remind me of '45 and '61 Bordeaux?
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Glad someone is paying attention.

No, there is no danger of your mistaking '12 L'Arpent Rouge CRB for '45 GPL blind.

Consider this very subjective, although I am convinced there is a lot more to it. The pure/small/fresh berry flavors found in the likes of '45 GPL *and* '12 L'Arpent (to stick to the example) is a quality I adore as much as any other. I have a very difficult time finding this among the great wines of celebrated regions from more recent time. Inescapable alcohol levels, lack of dryness, different flavor/leanness ratios - all lead to a new flavor paradigm.

The genre isn't what's being compared here. But if someone tells you that The Beatles were the first to write a cool and catchy tune since Schubert, it's a highly debatable but not an invalid argument.
 
originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Er, what natural wines are gonna remind me of '45 and '61 Bordeaux?
Click to expand...

Glad someone is paying attention.

No, there is no danger of your mistaking '12 L'Arpent Rouge CRB for '45 GPL blind.

Consider this very subjective, although I am convinced there is a lot more to it. The pure/small/fresh berry flavors found in the likes of '45 GPL *and* '12 L'Arpent (to stick to the example) is a quality I adore as much as any other. I have a very difficult time finding this among the great wines of celebrated regions from more recent time. Inescapable alcohol levels, lack of dryness, different flavor/leanness ratios - all lead to a new flavor paradigm.

The genre isn't what's being compared here. But if someone tells you that The Beatles were the first to write a cool and catchy tune since Schubert, it's a highly debatable but not an invalid argument.
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With regard to the Beatles, it's not even close to a valid argument, unless you don't consider the arias in Puccini, anything in the American songbook, or indeed, even the Everly Brothers songs (with whom they were at first compared) to have catchy tunes.

Since I've never had a 45 Bordeaux from any chateau, I'll leave that claim for you and Keith to work out.
 
Eric, fair point! I edited the message to add "arguably" better.

Generally, though, folks here would have a better wine they paid $75 for than what the restaurant chose to pay $50 for.

. . . . Pete
 
originally posted by Peter Creasey:

Eric, fair point! I edited the message to add "arguably" better.

Generally, though, folks here would have a better wine they paid $75 for than what the restaurant chose to pay $50 for.

. . . . Pete
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the difference quality in a wine that wholesales for $50 and wine that retails for $75 is apt to be pretty negligible.
 
The 100% natural only wine list concept has gone too far. I eat out extensively around the world and to think I can't order a bottle of low alcohol, high acid, food friendly riesling in many of my favorite restaurants is disappointing to me. Moreover I can't even find an enjoyable bottle on many Natural only lists.
 
originally posted by Robert Dentice:


The 100% natural only wine list concept has gone too far. I eat out extensively around the world and to think I can't order a bottle of low alcohol, high acid, food friendly riesling in many of my favorite restaurants is disappointing to me. Moreover I can't even find an enjoyable bottle on many Natural only lists.
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I find that very hard to believe. But then again I don't know your taste in wine. As someone who probably won't go to a restaurant unless they have some organic/BD producers on the wine list (and, no, not all are "natural" wines), I can say that no two places seem to have the same definition nor does their gatekeeper choose the same wines. But to say not one enjoyable bottle on many natural lists? Hmmm . . . that strains credulity.
 
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Robert Dentice:


The 100% natural only wine list concept has gone too far. I eat out extensively around the world and to think I can't order a bottle of low alcohol, high acid, food friendly riesling in many of my favorite restaurants is disappointing to me. Moreover I can't even find an enjoyable bottle on many Natural only lists.
Click to expand...

I find that very hard to believe. But then again I don't know your taste in wine. As someone who probably won't go to a restaurant unless they have some organic/BD producers on the wine list (and, no, not all are "natural" wines), I can say that no two places seem to have the same definition nor does their gatekeeper choose the same wines. But to say not one enjoyable bottle on many natural lists? Hmmm . . . that strains credulity.
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How much time do you spend in Paris? Paris is a perfect example where almost every natural wine list is identical. So there is also a boredom factor. I could write these wine lists with my eyes close.

I will give you one extreme example, Germany. Which just happens to me my favorite country for wine.

For most of the last few years there are two wines that qualify as Natural (there are currently a few more). 2naturkinder and Trossen. I can't tell you how many Natural wine lists around the world have just one or both of these wines which is absurd.
 
originally posted by Robert Dentice:
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Robert Dentice:


The 100% natural only wine list concept has gone too far. I eat out extensively around the world and to think I can't order a bottle of low alcohol, high acid, food friendly riesling in many of my favorite restaurants is disappointing to me. Moreover I can't even find an enjoyable bottle on many Natural only lists.
Click to expand...

I find that very hard to believe. But then again I don't know your taste in wine. As someone who probably won't go to a restaurant unless they have some organic/BD producers on the wine list (and, no, not all are "natural" wines), I can say that no two places seem to have the same definition nor does their gatekeeper choose the same wines. But to say not one enjoyable bottle on many natural lists? Hmmm . . . that strains credulity.
Click to expand...

How much time do you spend in Paris? Paris is a perfect example where almost every natural wine list is identical. So there is also a boredom factor. I could write these wine lists with my eyes close.

I will give you one extreme example, Germany. Which just happens to me my favorite country for wine.

For most of the last few years there are two wines that qualify as Natural (there are currently a few more). 2naturkinder and Trossen. I can't tell you how many Natural wine lists around the world have just one or both of these wines which is absurd.
Click to expand...

Well, no one likes cookie cutter, no matter where they live. That hasn't been my experience, but I have not been to the natural wine bars in Paris in a while. I, too, love German (and Austrian) wines. I have been to places were I live now (Oslo) with "natural lists" and find they always include producers like Clemens Busch and Nikolaihof. That suits me fine, though I buy a much wider range of producers.
 
Well, no one likes cookie cutter, no matter where they live. That hasn't been my experience, but I have not been to the natural wine bars in Paris in a while. I, too, love German (and Austrian) wines. I have been to places were I live now (Oslo) with "natural lists" and find they always include producers like Clemens Busch and Nikolaihof. That suits me fine, though I buy a much wider range of producers.
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Mark - You said it well. Cookie cutter is a great way of describing what I am saying. And I could not agree more on Clemens Busch and Nikolaihof. I have begged a few restaurants to add Clemens Busch since he is distributed in the U.S. through Dressner and therefore easy to get for some restaurants who already have a relationship with them.
 
originally posted by Brézème:
+1 with Robert.
My last trip to Copenhagen was a real nightmare.
Beer is a much better option there.
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I will report back when I go to Copenhagen this summer, but I have heard that "natural" lists abound. Thanks for the info, Eric. Sorry to have missed you at the LDM tasting this past fall in NY. My plane was leaving then we turned back after sitting on the runway for an hour; cancelled due to weather. Rats!
 
It was clear during a short visit last year that natural lists do abound in Copenhagen, but since the flavor and texture of new oak and sterile filtration don't seem to be considered an impediment, there are literally thousands (e.g., in the Noma list) of styles to choose from, even with residual sugar.
 
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