"Natural" Wine

"Authenticity," they wrote, "is employed to provide distinction without overt snobbery."

What's wrong with a bit of overt snobbery, I ask you?
 
I especially liked this bit of confirmation: “The first time Thomas and I tried our wine without sulphur it was incredible”, Pernet said. “It was so open, so expressive. Sulphur makes wine very closed.”
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
originally posted by Florida Jim:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Sulphur makes wine very closed.”
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While I agree with this statement I would add “ for awhile.”
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Until when?
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Until it dissipates.
As much as that sounds like a cop out, there is no way know with precision.

It is entirely possible to over-sulphur a wine. My experience is that when total sulphur (bound and unbound) reaches 100-120 ppm, it becomes noticeable when tasting. I assume that many J.J. Prum wines are an example of this (although I don’t know their sulphur regimen).

But kept below noticeable levels, sulphur can still have an insidious effect, ie., making the wine seem closed. Again, my experience is that, over time, the wine chemically reaches equilibrium and some or all of the free sulphur becomes bound. My 2017 Ribolla is the best example I can use.
At bottling, I dosed it with 30 ppm. Of course, the act of bottling as some effect but in my opinion, the wine was initially closed more due to dosing than being shaken up. However, over the months since bottling (it was bottled in early February, 2018) it has opened up nicely and now is showing as complete and open as my 2016 Ribolla which did not get dosed at bottling.

And, FWIW, I’ve had older Prum wines that have shown no sulphur; hence, I surmise that time may allow for changes in bottle that make even large doses of sulphur less noticeable.

I realize that all of this is anecdotal but I doubt that one can objectively quantify what a wine “shows” to any particular person at any particular time. Someone here with more experience and more of a chemistry background may be able to teach me differently.

Best, Jim
 
Because sulfur dioxide (metabisulfite) is an antioxidant, it will slowly be oxidized in the bottle (subject to the degree of oxygen ingress through or around the closure) to sulfate, which I presume is tasteless and odorless. Again, I presume that the bound form is what results in the "closing down" of the wine. So, even a Prüm wine will eventually run out of sulfites to oxidize.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by MLipton:
Because sulfur dioxide (metabisulfite) is an antioxidant, it will slowly be oxidized in the bottle (subject to the degree of oxygen ingress through or around the closure) to sulfate, which I presume is tasteless and odorless. Again, I presume that the bound form is what results in the "closing down" of the wine. So, even a Prüm wine will eventually run out of sulfites to oxidize.

Mark Lipton
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Mark,
I have noticed that even when there is virtually no sulphur in a barrel of wine, when I add sulphur the wine is less aromatic and less flavorful. So my guess is that sulphur, bound or unbound, can initially make a wine show as closed. I’ve also noticed that wine in barrel seems to recover from being dosed over time.
With wines like Prum, that show a lot of sulphur young but not when old, I am at a loss to explain - I assume the aging chemistry is pretty complex and that something along the way decreases the noticeable character in the wine.
Thoughts?
Best, Jim
 
originally posted by MLipton:
Because sulfur dioxide (metabisulfite) is an antioxidant, it will slowly be oxidized in the bottle (subject to the degree of oxygen ingress through or around the closure) to sulfate, which I presume is tasteless and odorless. Again, I presume that the bound form is what results in the "closing down" of the wine. So, even a Prüm wine will eventually run out of sulfites to oxidize.

Mark Lipton
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Useful chemistry lesson, thanks. One of the early (failed) tactics they used to fight premox in Burgundy seemed to be massively upping the sulfur - I guess this was the thinking. I remember all the 2007 white burgundies smelling like Prum. It didn't seem to have helped much though.
 
On another note, I was taken by Mark L's comment about oxygen migration past the cork. My wine storage place has partitions, racking, doors etc. made out of cheap particle board, which uses urea formaldyhyde as a glue. It offgasses massively, is a known health problem, etc., and really should just be banned as a building material. I have often wondered if those molecules might make their way over time into the wine and impact not only health but flavor. There is millions and millions of dollars worth of wine in the facility, a lot of it very high end, and I can't help but wonder - and it seems completely off anyone's radar.
 
originally posted by BJ:
On another note, I was taken by Mark L's comment about oxygen migration past the cork. My wine storage place has partitions, racking, doors etc. made out of cheap particle board, which uses urea formaldyhyde as a glue. It offgasses massively, is a known health problem, etc., and really should just be banned as a building material. I have often wondered if those molecules might make their way over time into the wine and impact not only health but flavor. There is millions and millions of dollars worth of wine in the facility, a lot of it very high end, and I can't help but wonder - and it seems completely off anyone's radar.
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You’re right to be concerned. It’s offgassing formaldehyde, right? It’s a small enough molecule that it could diffuse into the wine. The good news is that it’ll react quickly with the phenolics in the wine, so unlikely to be a health problem, but it could affect the flavor and aging potential of the wines.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by MLipton:
Because sulfur dioxide (metabisulfite) is an antioxidant, it will slowly be oxidized in the bottle (subject to the degree of oxygen ingress through or around the closure) to sulfate, which I presume is tasteless and odorless. Again, I presume that the bound form is what results in the "closing down" of the wine. So, even a Prüm wine will eventually run out of sulfites to oxidize.

Mark Lipton
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On the subject of Prüm, whenever I stroll through one of those German riesling auction tastings, Prüm is by no means the worst offender... until you taste the wines. Purely on smell, there are others that will make you scramble for the emergency exits whereas the Manfred Cocktail appears quite civilized. Big difference when you taste them though, particularly in the finish where it's all coiled up. I've heard this referred to as a distinction between "free" and "bound" sulfur - is that so, and what are the substances involved? TIA.
 
Pavel,
Mark can give you the chemistry but, in lay terms, bound sulphur has done its job whereas free sulphur is still available to do its job - that job being as an antioxidant or antibacterial agent.
Best, Jim
 
OK, it's going to get a bit geeky (but what else is new?). "Free" sulfur is a mixture of bisulfite ion, which is water soluble, and sulfur dioxide, which is a gas partially soluble in water (these two species are in equilibrium with one another through the gain/loss of water). "Bound" sulfur refers to all the species produced through reaction of bisulfite or sulfur dioxide with the constituent molecules of wine. So, one can get sulfite esters of sugars and phenolics in wine, but bisulfite also undergoes a reaction with aldeyhydes so acetaldehyde and other smellies can be bound up in bisfulfite addition complexes. All of these processes are equilibrium processes, so things are shifting back in forth in the bottle. As oxygen reacts with free sulfites, equilibrium is reestablished by loss of some of the bound sulfur.

Now on to organoleptic properties. Free SO2 smells of burnt matchsticks. The bound stuff probably results in loss of smells and flavors, so I'd expect that the "closed down" state arises from the existence of bound sulfur species. Why would Prüm be more affected? Maybe it's got greater amounts of dry extract? Another factor that can affect the equilibrium between free and bound sulfur is the pH of the wine: the more acidic the wine, the greater the proportion of free sulfur. That's all I've got.

Mark Lipton
 
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