Here's the Thing... Chidaine???

[Jayson Cohen]

There is no problem getting Chidaine in NY and NJ. Brad and I have a running disputes on ageability. I love Chidaine and think it ages well. The Clos Habert to my taste requires age. Delicious 2000 a few months ago. Very good 1998 - a very tough year- 3 years ago. I drank the small number of 96s and 97s I had too young. 2002s are drinking well. On bottlings I also particularly like Choisilles.

It’s not Huet. Nothing is Huet. You can’t expect that. And I like the tension and balance and size of Pinon’s wines better. But in my view Chidaine is playing almost at this level even though his dirt probably isn’t quite as interesting.

Only way to find out if you like how his wines age is to age them. It’s Chenin. It has acid and extract and balance. The wines are certainly not going to fall apart.

 

[Brad Kane]

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:

Only way to find out if you like how his wines age is to age them. It’s Chenin. It has acid and extract and balance. The wines are certainly not going to fall apart.

No, but his wines do tend to get tired and oxy relatively quickly, imo and that's our debate. Some like that profile, I don't.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

Last bottle of 2005 Brut beautiful less than a year ago. Quite a surprise.

If we absolutely must compare to the great Vouvray, lets consider the sweet stuff. 1990 Les Lys was stunning in 2008, and clearly had a couple of decades to go (which isn't to say that it wouldn't be interesting thereafter, in a more tertiary way). It ain't Constance, but easily among the great sweets of the Loire nevertheless.

 

[Jayson Cohen]

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
Last bottle of 2005 Brut beautiful less than a year ago. Quite a surprise.

If we absolutely must compare to the great Vouvray, lets consider the sweet stuff. 1990 Les Lys was stunning in 2008, and clearly had a couple of decades to go (which isn't to say that it wouldn't be interesting thereafter, in a more tertiary way). It ain't Constance, but easily among the great sweets of the Loire nevertheless.

But don’t you remember that old adage, comrade Pavel: “Brad is always right.” Or did I get that wrong?

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
Last bottle of 2005 Brut beautiful less than a year ago. Quite a surprise.

If we absolutely must compare to the great Vouvray, lets consider the sweet stuff. 1990 Les Lys was stunning in 2008, and clearly had a couple of decades to go (which isn't to say that it wouldn't be interesting thereafter, in a more tertiary way). It ain't Constance, but easily among the great sweets of the Loire nevertheless.

But don’t you remember that old adage, comrade Pavel: “Brad is always right.” Or did I get that wrong?

I thought it was "Brad likes the very driest champagne?"

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
Last bottle of 2005 Brut beautiful less than a year ago. Quite a surprise.

If we absolutely must compare to the great Vouvray, lets consider the sweet stuff. 1990 Les Lys was stunning in 2008, and clearly had a couple of decades to go (which isn't to say that it wouldn't be interesting thereafter, in a more tertiary way). It ain't Constance, but easily among the great sweets of the Loire nevertheless.

This brings to mind a question. At what levels of sweetness do we best see the effects of terroir and conversely at which do we best see the effects of winemaking?

Mark Lipton

 

[robert ames]

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:
Last bottle of 2005 Brut beautiful less than a year ago. Quite a surprise.

If we absolutely must compare to the great Vouvray, lets consider the sweet stuff. 1990 Les Lys was stunning in 2008, and clearly had a couple of decades to go (which isn't to say that it wouldn't be interesting thereafter, in a more tertiary way). It ain't Constance, but easily among the great sweets of the Loire nevertheless.

This brings to mind a question. At what levels of sweetness do we best see the effects of terroir and conversely at which do we best see the effects of winemaking?

Mark Lipton

this sounds a little like "do you walk to school, or carry your lunch?"

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by MLipton:
This brings to mind a question. At what levels of sweetness do we best see the effects of terroir and conversely at which do we best see the effects of winemaking?

Are you trying to ask: Can we tell whether a vigneron harvests sweet grapes because that's best for expressing terroir or because he just likes sweet wine?

 

[MLipton]

Hmmm... I thought my question was self-evident. What i’m Getting at is that it’s a widely held belief that Huet and Foreau hold the finest terroir in Vouvray. What I’m wondering is if that advantage manifests itself in all bottlings or if certain levels of sweetness showcase the terroir more than others. On other hand, the winemaking at Chidaine may be every bit as good or better than what goes on chez Huet. So, will that be more evident at some sweetness levels? For instance, does a Moelleux bottling, which requires greater risk taking and stricter selection in the vineyard, not depend so highly on advantageous terroir? Just curious....

Mark Lipton

 

[mark e]

originally posted by MLipton:
Hmmm... I thought my question was self-evident. What i’m Getting at is that it’s a widely held belief that Huet and Foreau hold the finest terroir in Vouvray. What I’m wondering is if that advantage manifests itself in all bottlings or if certain levels of sweetness showcase the terroir more than others. On other hand, the winemaking at Chidaine may be every bit as good or better than what goes on chez Huet. So, will that be more evident at some sweetness levels? For instance, does a Moelleux bottling, which requires greater risk taking and stricter selection in the vineyard, not depend so highly on advantageous terroir? Just curious....

Mark Lipton

It's an interesting question that probably could extend to, say, sites in the Mosel. At what ripeness level and RS is terroir most evident?

I'm not sure one could answer that but my guess is that below certain physiological maturity levels and then way past those levels, terroir is not expressed (at the low level) and then not quite as evident (at the highest levels; e.g., TBAs). Those who have tasted vin clairs in Champagne are welcome to dispute or discuss this.

Having tasted old secs at Foreau I believe I can say that they are a terroir megaphone. I'm not so sure about Huet (and what ripeness/sweetness levels best expresses their terroir), as their wines and sites are different, and I've always found them a tad too muscular compared to Foreau. But that is a different topic.

 

[MLipton]

Thanks for the insight, mark. Yes, the question is not specific to Vouvray or Chenin. I’d merely framed it that way this thread was going.

Mark Lipton

 

[BJ]

I love Chidaine. To me a little like Luneau-Papin to Huet's or Foreau's Pepiere, but then I prefer L-P to Pepiere personally. But I like many Zind Humbrechts, so what do I know.

My dirty little Vouvray secret is that I prefer Chidaine and Foreau to Huet (and Pinon). Sorry Jay and Jayson and Jeff to disclose this now at a safe distance!

I used to have piles of Chidaine scattered around the cellar - certainly not as prevalent here in Jet City as formerly.

 

[VLM]

Francois claims (or used to) that different sites should either be dry or contain rs and he does that by site every year. IIRC, he believes the best sites should be sec, so the Clos Boudoin (Vouvray) and Bournais (Montlouis) are vinified dry.

I don't know if I could pick a favorite from this quartet of excellent producers, I guess it depends on the purpose. They are all distinct to me and I'll be in the mood for one or the other depending on outside circumstance. I drink more chenin than I cellar, which maybe I should change.

 

[Bill Lundstrom]

has anyone seen the sparkler he makes after it spend 9 years (?) on the lees? i drank my last bottle years ago and have never seen it offered since. i know he doesn't make it every year but i would love to taste that wine again

 

[BJ]

originally posted by VLM:
Francois claims (or used to) that different sites should either be dry or contain rs and he does that by site every year. IIRC, he believes the best sites should be sec, so the Clos Boudoin (Vouvray) and Bournais (Montlouis) are vinified dry.

I don't know if I could pick a favorite from this quartet of excellent producers, I guess it depends on the purpose. They are all distinct to me and I'll be in the mood for one or the other depending on outside circumstance. I drink more chenin than I cellar, which maybe I should change.

Yeah, that's a nice assessment actually. They all are different, vive la difference.

I somehow completely spaced out on mentioning that Chidaine has a nice tasting/sales room in Montlouis right on the main highway running along the River. We were there during a busy time so didn't get a chance to meet him, but we enjoyed the visit. They sell a bunch of different Loire producers there - it's a fun way to check out a range of stuff.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

originally posted by Bill Lundstrom:
has anyone seen the sparkler he makes after it spend 9 years (?) on the lees? i drank my last bottle years ago and have never seen it offered since. i know he doesn't make it every year but i would love to taste that wine again

Almendra. The 1996 was good last year, if not life-changing.

 

[Bill Lundstrom]

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:

originally posted by Bill Lundstrom:
has anyone seen the sparkler he makes after it spend 9 years (?) on the lees? i drank my last bottle years ago and have never seen it offered since. i know he doesn't make it every year but i would love to taste that wine again

Almendra. The 1996 was good last year, if not life-changing.

when was the last time this wine was made? the 96s i had are long gone and i have never sen it since. the wine was tremendously good for Loire Valley bubbly.

 

[Jayson Cohen]

originally posted by BJ:
I love Chidaine. To me a little like Luneau-Papin to Huet's or Foreau's Pepiere, but then I prefer L-P to Pepiere personally. But I like many Zind Humbrechts, so what do I know.

My dirty little Vouvray secret is that I prefer Chidaine and Foreau to Huet (and Pinon). Sorry Jay and Jayson and Jeff to disclose this now at a safe distance!

I used to have piles of Chidaine scattered around the cellar - certainly not as prevalent here in Jet City as formerly.

You need not have feared. Particularly as you poured me (another) glass from that fantastic bottle of 96 Huet Le Mont 1er Trie.you brought.

 

[robert ames]

anybody out there had the 2014 clos boudoin?

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

originally posted by Bill Lundstrom:
has anyone seen the sparkler he makes after it spend 9 years (?) on the lees? i drank my last bottle years ago and have never seen it offered since. i know he doesn't make it every year but i would love to taste that wine again

I think the sparkler comes in sec and demi-; I've seen them with fair frequency in the DC area and, iirc, at Gordons (in Maine?), which carries Chidaine regularly. Goodish young, if not striking; have not had one with age, alas.

Chalk me up in the fan category for Habert and Bouchet.