TN: La Persistance de la Memoire (June 5, 2018)

[Oswaldo Costa]

Thanks, Mike.

Perhaps the matter would be clarified by a side-by-side tasting of a botrityzed sample and a non-botrityzed sample made by a Thévenet from the same plot, but that would run the risk of settling the issue.

Not to mention that we have two reasonably established and quite divergent meanings of terroir that seem unabout to be settled.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Mike Evans:


As to the botrytis question, I would argue that it can be a component of the terroir of a given place and in those cases not only would not be getting in the way of terroir but is actually an expression of the terroir.

I'm not sure this is quite right. Bonnezeaux and Barsac-Sauternes might come to mind as examples of what you mean, but there is a difference between how the wines taste and the terroir. Many Mosel TBAs don't seem like terribly good expressions of their terroir, while almost-no-botrytis BAs might be.

 

[Jay Miller]

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
Not sure this is where I would go.

You mean this is not where you'd go in comparing 96s and 89s from Huet? I agree; I was just having some fun.

It's been said by those infinitely qualified to comment on the subject that, with age, demi-sec is the "sweet spot" (LOL) for Huet. Hard to argue when you consider something like 59 LHL Demi as an example. If we are to treat this as an axiom, what is achieved in 96 in the sweet wines becomes particularly remarkable.

I agree with all this. And I am not infinitely qualified.

Psshyeah! Infinity-10000 at the most.

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
I was waiting for you to chime in with exactly this. I stand by my comments. Notwithstanding how good ‘89 Constance and the specialty bottlings are.

From another thread:

"This brings to mind a question. At what levels of sweetness do we best see the effects of terroir and conversely at which do we best see the effects of winemaking?

Mark Lipton"

Not sure this is where I would go. And as I think about it, I don’t think it is a question that (no offense) is well posed or can be answered. But that has never stopped any of us in the past on the wine boards!!

No offense taken, Jayson, but I am curious: what makes you say it's not well posed? Given that e.g. Huet makes various wines from Le Haut Lieu, is it in any way problematic to ask if any particular bottling is more easily identified as being from LHL than others? Conversely, since various producers in the region make wines at various sweetness levels, is there an issue with asking whether e.g. Foreau is more easily identified as the producer at a given sweetness level? FWIW, I could just as easily have posed this question about Mosel producers.

Mark Lipton

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Mike Evans:


As to the botrytis question, I would argue that it can be a component of the terroir of a given place and in those cases not only would not be getting in the way of terroir but is actually an expression of the terroir.

I'm not sure this is quite right. Bonnezeaux and Barsac-Sauternes might come to mind as examples of what you mean, but there is a difference between how the wines taste and the terroir. Many Mosel TBAs don't seem like terribly good expressions of their terroir, while almost-no-botrytis BAs might be.

A conundrum for sure. If topography and microclimate are part of terroir, and they encourage botrytis, then botrytis is an expression of terroir. But if TBAs from several otherwise dissimilar terroirs resemble each other, then maybe botrytis obscures terroir (as one might argue for excess new oak or brett). Could vaporize hours disputing this one.

 

[BJ]

Yeah, I was actually going to jump in on this one (I typically avoid these debates). Terroir is pretty clearly defined as the whole earth space around a site - all in, soil, hydrogeology, micro and macro biology, bugs, critters, slope aspect and orientation, local plants and forest, general weather, microclimate, climatic space are all part of it. Brett on the other hand is really a factor in wine based on cellar practices (or lack thereof)...I know Brett is naturally occurring on the grapes, but what we taste when we taste brett is not from that, it's from the cellar.

Botrytis is a rarity - if it was an inherently potential feature of some, many, or most wines that could be dialed in, I would maybe have a different response. In the case of Thevenet, the Quintane vineyards have a very different location than to say Pouilly, which is way up in the hills - Quintane is right next to the Saone, on a cote which captures/bounds the foggy riverbottom, not that different than Layon or Sauternes. In general, Quintane is probably the most different of any of the Maconnais appelations - again, like Sauternes and Barsac in Bordeaux. If that isn't terroir, I'm not sure what is. Brett ain't terroir.

And the reality is that Thevenet releases many different wines, and many which are not botrytized, some just a touch, some a fair amount. They're all fucking delicious.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by BJ:


Botrytis is a rarity - if it was an inherently potential feature of some, many, or most wines that could be dialed in, I would maybe have a different response.

If you taste a lot of German and Austrian wines, as I have, you probably would not say that. There are many vintages where it is hard to find completely Botrytis-free wines. I'm not a fan in drier wines, and perhaps I am overly sensitive to it.

If you take the example of Királyudvar, I have a feeling that the Botrytis-free Furmint might just show the terroir better than all their Tokaji Aszú cuvées, but I'm not sure.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

Do we expect that different terroirs will always taste differently?

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Do we expect that different terroirs will always taste differently?

In theory, I'd say yes, if the terroirs (in my restricted definition) are allowed to express themselves freely through the grapes (whatever that means, but it would include neutral wood only, similar organoleptic maturity, and non-interventionist winemaking).

All that said, I'm sure the variations between adjoining plots can be minute, and undetectable to the average we, or at least average me.