Keith Levenberg
Keith Levenberg
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TN: Juge Vertical in NYC (June 3, 2018)
- Thread starter Jayson Cohen
- Start date
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
originally posted by Rahsaan:
Those late night/early morning wine-finishing decisions are always interesting!
Yes. Especially the early mornings ones.
It used to be very easy to convince myself that the wine would not be worth touching the next day. So I needed to finish it!
As I get older, I become (a bit) more prudent with my body. So if the wine is no longer evolving or showing me anything particularly interesting, I don't hesitate to stop no matter how empty/full the bottle is.
Jayson Cohen
Jayson Cohen
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
originally posted by Rahsaan:
Those late night/early morning wine-finishing decisions are always interesting!
Yes. Especially the early mornings ones.
It used to be very easy to convince myself that the wine would not be worth touching the next day. So I needed to finish it!
As I get older, I become (a bit) more prudent with my body. So if the wine is no longer evolving or showing me anything particularly interesting, I don't hesitate to stop no matter how empty/full the bottle is.
As you can probably tell, I am very fond of tracking wine over several days. So setting a bottle (or glass) aside for the next day, even if it is good, is not typically a problem for me.
Jayson Cohen
Jayson Cohen
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
They are not at the level of Verset or Chave for sure, but then, not much is. Not that Verset's wines are a lock to be free of chemical issues though. I sold a batch that was about half glorious and half brett bombs.
I don't get the itch to drink syrah *very* often, and there are enough options juuust short of the top tier (Champet, Benetiere, Levet, Barge, Gilles, Texier, Graillot) that I don't sweat the trophy or culty ones. Just bought some Gallet at $40 from Envoyer, hope they're still as good as they used to be. Lyle also appears to have some promising newcomers like Serrette. Love Allemand, but no interest in them at Chave prices - if that happens to Juge I will sell and not look back. Curious about your redaction!
What does top tier mean? Does it have dimensions of time and space? Does it have a score? Does it have to be anointed?
Keith Levenberg
Keith Levenberg
In the Rhone, top tier means Chave
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
They are not at the level of Verset or Chave for sure, but then, not much is. Not that Verset's wines are a lock to be free of chemical issues though. I sold a batch that was about half glorious and half brett bombs.
I don't get the itch to drink syrah *very* often, and there are enough options juuust short of the top tier (Champet, Benetiere, Levet, Barge, Gilles, Texier, Graillot) that I don't sweat the trophy or culty ones. Just bought some Gallet at $40 from Envoyer, hope they're still as good as they used to be. Lyle also appears to have some promising newcomers like Serrette. Love Allemand, but no interest in them at Chave prices - if that happens to Juge I will sell and not look back. Curious about your redaction!
What does top tier mean? Does have dimensions of time and space? Does it have a score? Does it have to be anointed?
Price, of course. If it was good enough for ranking bordeaux in 1855, it's good enough for ranking Northern Rhones today.
Zachary Ross
Zachary Ross
Said this over there where people berserk, but will say it here too: so sorry to have had to cancel on this. If there's a next time, I'll do my best to be there.
Also, I'd be interested in hearing the 2015 Juge story some day.
Also, I'd be interested in hearing the 2015 Juge story some day.
Keith Levenberg
Keith Levenberg
That could bite you in the ass. You'll end up with a cellar full of Guigal.originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Price, of course. If it was good enough for ranking bordeaux in 1855, it's good enough for ranking Northern Rhones today.
Jayson Cohen
Jayson Cohen
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
In the Rhone, top tier means Chave
AHA! It does have dimensions of time and space. At least.
Anyway I’m secure in my vinous choices. I don’t need rankings or tiers to validate them although I’m also not against saying X was better than Y in context or generally. I know, my hypocrisy knows no bounds.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
For label-fondlers, maybe. But it depends who you ask.originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
In the Rhone, top tier means Chave
Ben Hunting
Ben Hunting
Great post. Love your Paris wine shop story.
I, too, would be curious to hear the 2015 Juge story!
Personally, I was lucky enough to buy some perfectly stored 2004 Allemand Chaillot in the U.K. for about $45 five years ago, and have opened a few bottles at different points over the last year. Based on the best of those, I can see how people might not guess the wine was Northern Rhone Syrah, but I've also experienced a lot of bottle variation.originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
Mystery Wine No. 1. After pinning down that it was red wine, guesses ranged from Burgundy to Côte-Rôtie and Cornas. While still blind, all tasters agreed that Mystery Wine No. 1 was elegant and Burgundian. The wine is firmly but caressingly present on the palate, long, and drinking extremely well in a medium-bodied but full-flavored package of brambleberries and black raspberries, juicy acidity, and a suave velvety textured midpalate and finish. The palate echoes the nose. Perhaps the velvety nature of the experience led people to the Cote d’Or. One comment from an early Burgundy proponent at the table was, “it tastes like Burgundy but why would we have Burgundy at a Syrah tasting?” The only guess on a grower was that this might be an older Juge wine.
I, too, would be curious to hear the 2015 Juge story!
Jayson Cohen
Jayson Cohen
This bottle of Allemand Chaillot was in perfect shape. It is from a half case I bought from Flickinger around release at $55/. (I have heard about bottle variation and Brett issues with Allemand’s 2004s.)
Keith Levenberg
Keith Levenberg
Label-fondlers aren't *always* wrong.originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
For label-fondlers, maybe. But it depends who you ask.originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
In the Rhone, top tier means Chave
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
But that's the way to bet.originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Label-fondlers aren't *always* wrong.originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
For label-fondlers, maybe. But it depends who you ask.originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
In the Rhone, top tier means Chave
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
I'm surprised at how Allemand weaves in and out of the conversation as if it were comparable, with nary a word about it being semi-carbonic. That puts it in a different kettle of bouillabaisse.
Jayson Cohen
Jayson Cohen
I hope Eric is lurking and jumps in to discuss the winemaking differences. I was under the impression that Juge used a whole cluster submerged cap fermentation method (without punching or pump-overs), but I don’t know the details or how it differs exactly from Allemand’s regime. Allemamd’s wines in bottle seem to be more reductive than Juge’s wines, but that could just be my uneducated impresssion.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
That could bite you in the ass. You'll end up with a cellar full of Guigal.originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Price, of course. If it was good enough for ranking bordeaux in 1855, it's good enough for ranking Northern Rhones today.
Well, irony, it turns out, also has mixed results.
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
In the Rhone, top tier means Chave
I'd put Allemand in that top tier, we've got a 25 year track record at this point. Allemand was my Chave replacement.
The run on Jamet has been interesting, too. People are paying $2K a bottle for the 1991, which is probably on the wrong side of the hill.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
I hope Eric is lurking and jumps in to discuss the winemaking differences. I was under the impression that Juge used a whole cluster submerged cap fermentation method (without punching or pump-overs), but I don’t know the details or how it differs exactly from Allemand’s regime. Allemamd’s wines in bottle seem to be more reductive than Juge’s wines, but that could just be my uneducated impresssion.
If so, whole cluster introduces a measure of intracelular fermentation that be reminiscent of semi-carbonic, muddling the issue.
If Allemand seems to be more reductive (though not according to my very limited experience), perhaps he bottles in a more reduced state in order to use less sulfur.
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
I hope Eric is lurking and jumps in to discuss the winemaking differences. I was under the impression that Juge used a whole cluster submerged cap fermentation method (without punching or pump-overs), but I don’t know the details or how it differs exactly from Allemand’s regime. Allemamd’s wines in bottle seem to be more reductive than Juge’s wines, but that could just be my uneducated impresssion.
If so, whole cluster introduces a measure of intracelular fermentation that be reminiscent of semi-carbonic, muddling the issue.
If Allemand seems to be more reductive (though not according to my very limited experience), perhaps he bottles in a more reduced state in order to use less sulfur.
In whole cluster you still press, in semi-carbonic fermentation starts. I think it sounds blurrier than it is in practice.
Syrah tends towards reduction, but as you state, Allemand limits exposure to oxygen in order to avoid sulfur additions. Fourrier is similar but you notice it less because it is pinot noir instead of syrah.
All this said, I am no expert.