TN: Juge Vertical in NYC (June 3, 2018)

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
I hope Eric is lurking and jumps in to discuss the winemaking differences. I was under the impression that Juge used a whole cluster submerged cap fermentation method (without punching or pump-overs), but I don’t know the details or how it differs exactly from Allemand’s regime. Allemamd’s wines in bottle seem to be more reductive than Juge’s wines, but that could just be my uneducated impresssion.
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If so, whole cluster introduces a measure of intracelular fermentation that be reminiscent of semi-carbonic, muddling the issue.

If Allemand seems to be more reductive (though not according to my very limited experience), perhaps he bottles in a more reduced state in order to use less sulfur.
Click to expand...

I could be wrong about no pump overs but with whole cluster and relatively gentle submersion of the cap, I thought you do get some intercellular fermentation that, as you say, muddles the issue. In the finished wines I put Allemand and Juge in a similar camp with respect to floral and fruit expression and mouthfeel/texture.
 
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
I hope Eric is lurking and jumps in to discuss the winemaking differences. I was under the impression that Juge used a whole cluster submerged cap fermentation method (without punching or pump-overs), but I don’t know the details or how it differs exactly from Allemand’s regime. Allemamd’s wines in bottle seem to be more reductive than Juge’s wines, but that could just be my uneducated impresssion.
Click to expand...

If so, whole cluster introduces a measure of intracelular fermentation that be reminiscent of semi-carbonic, muddling the issue.

If Allemand seems to be more reductive (though not according to my very limited experience), perhaps he bottles in a more reduced state in order to use less sulfur.
Click to expand...

I could be wrong about no pump overs but with whole cluster and relatively gentle submersion of the cap, I thought you do get some intercellular fermentation that, as you say, muddles the issue. In the finished wines I put Allemand and Juge in a similar camp with respect to floral and fruit expression and mouthfeel/texture.
Click to expand...

I don't. In many ways, I think of Juge as the Truchot of the Northern Rhône. Allemand has denser and finer fruit and more complexity as well as cleanliness.
 
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
I hope Eric is lurking and jumps in to discuss the winemaking differences. I was under the impression that Juge used a whole cluster submerged cap fermentation method (without punching or pump-overs), but I don’t know the details or how it differs exactly from Allemand’s regime. Allemamd’s wines in bottle seem to be more reductive than Juge’s wines, but that could just be my uneducated impresssion.
Click to expand...

If so, whole cluster introduces a measure of intracelular fermentation that be reminiscent of semi-carbonic, muddling the issue.

If Allemand seems to be more reductive (though not according to my very limited experience), perhaps he bottles in a more reduced state in order to use less sulfur.
Click to expand...

I could be wrong about no pump overs but with whole cluster and relatively gentle submersion of the cap, I thought you do get some intercellular fermentation that, as you say, muddles the issue. In the finished wines I put Allemand and Juge in a similar camp with respect to floral and fruit expression and mouthfeel/texture.
Click to expand...

I don't. In many ways, I think of Juge as the Truchot of the Northern Rhône. Allemand has denser and finer fruit and more complexity as well as cleanliness.
Click to expand...
.

To each his/her own. I was talking camps, so we are speaking broadly. There is much more similarity to me between Allemand and Juge than what I have tried from Gilles and Lionnet and Paris for example. Albeit I have much more experience with the former group than the latter. Clape maybe is sort of in the middle. And I don’t think you are right on complexity, but it’s not an easily tested hypothesis. Also you may also be biased — maybe a little — by perceptions of dirty Juge wines you drank 15-20 years ago, which you have mentioned two or three times over the past couple years. I have my own biases I am sure. But I don’t think in Cornas. Just preferences — Verset, Allemand, and Juge.
 
What I said yesterday in the other place, Nathan, lest you think I am starry-eyed: “Allemand’s wine are more polished but also more tannic, not quite as wild in terms of the acid structure, the expression of fruit I think is a little cleaner and precise (and sometimes darker), and they are more predictable because I understand Allemand bottles a vintage, not on demand as Juge used to.”
 
One always has to press, even with semi-carbonic, otherwise not much juice will flow. But with semi-carbonic the pressing happens later, so the intracellular lasts longer.
 
Vinyl is better and you get a much more frequent Pavlovian hits (ie cost per hit). You can only buy so many boats, and the transfer barriers are much higher.
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Vinyl is the "brett is terroir" of formats.
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And here I thought that as someone who looks to 1791 to interpret the Bill of Rights, you’d have some respect for an analog and charming, if technologically dated, medium and means of expression.

Or do you plan on buying an 18th Century Schooner?
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
I support the highest possible fidelity to original meaning and original master tapes.
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No, you don't. Consulting master tapes is like consulting legislative intent. You should believe in obsessively listening only to originally issued vinyl, even as the information degrades, and interpreting its sounds as best you may.
 
originally posted by BJ:
And here I thought this board believed in actual experience over intellectualization...
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Obviously you’ve never met Keith. He remembers The Constitutional Congress vividly. Not to mention the advent of vinyl phonographs.
 
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