The one-two Givry-Chablis punch

[Rahsaan]

First dinner in Beaune and the wine list is not exactly overflowing with bargains, so we go modest and drink 2015 Joblot Givry Pied de Chaume. It serves its function well. Generous and deep (for a village Givry) from the moment it is opened. Nothing to get too excited over. But that's ok.

We switch gears back at the apartment with a nightcap of 2008 Raveneau Montée de Tonnerre. Now that's more like it! Gorgeous roasted nuts and melted butter (clichés are clichés for a reason) with the pure hard steel structure of Raveneau Chablis. Lovely balance between the semi-rich aged seasoned texture and crisp vivaciousness. We just wanted a glass but quickly the bottle was drained.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

How exciting to be in Beaune, despite being so oversold. As to the Raveneau, I know you meant well, but melted butter made me squirm with anti-lactic sentiment.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

And here I was figuring Givry + Chablis + fruit juice = punch.

 

[Jayson Cohen]

I shared a bottle of 2008 Raveneau Butteaux with Maureen, Keith, and David Ehrlich Wed. night during a fine meal at Primrose in DC, courtesy of David. It was nutty and briochey (but no melted butter or lactic, thank goodness) with a citrus undercurrent and gained significant amplitude and weight, as well as raspberry notes in the nose and integration of its acidity, with air. It was a great bottle and matched really well with a roasted fish dish that Maureen and I split.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
As to the Raveneau, I know you meant well, but melted butter made me squirm with anti-lactic sentiment.

Fair enough. But I wouldn't bet my life on measuring the exact extent of the buttery feel. I assume you don't object to all white wines that have gone through malolactic fermentation? Because there was a mellowing richness but also plenty of steel cut and drive. Far from the more southerly wines.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
As to the Raveneau, I know you meant well, but melted butter made me squirm with anti-lactic sentiment.

Fair enough. But I wouldn't bet my life on measuring the exact extent of the buttery feel. I assume you don't object to all white wines that have gone through malolactic fermentation? Because there was a mellowing richness but also plenty of steel cut and drive. Far from the more southerly wines.

Although I love my acid fix, I insist on malolactic, unless it doesn't happen for natural reasons (e.g., because there's not enough malic acid to convert). I don't accept the Napa-originated storyboard that malolactic equals butter or popcorn. Maybe induced malolactic bacteria do that, but I would not expect that from a Chablis deity.

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
As to the Raveneau, I know you meant well, but melted butter made me squirm with anti-lactic sentiment.

Fair enough. But I wouldn't bet my life on measuring the exact extent of the buttery feel. I assume you don't object to all white wines that have gone through malolactic fermentation? Because there was a mellowing richness but also plenty of steel cut and drive. Far from the more southerly wines.

Although I love my acid fix, I insist on malolactic, unless it doesn't happen for natural reasons (e.g., because there's not enough malic acid to convert). I don't accept the Napa-originated storyboard that malolactic equals butter or popcorn. Maybe induced malolactic bacteria do that, but I would not expect that from a Chablis deity.

I have been told by winemakers (with no independent verification) that diacetyl -- the flavor of buttered popcorn -- is produced when a malolactic fermentation gets too hot. What confound me are the lactic flavors I routinely get when tasting young Syrah, even from ultra-traditional producers from the N Rhone. They aren't diacetyl per se, more akin to buttermilk or creme fraiche. I've assumed that they're the remnant of a fairly recent MLF, but why I get it in Syrah and not other grapes is still a mystery to me.

Mark Lipton

 

[Jay Miller]

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
As to the Raveneau, I know you meant well, but melted butter made me squirm with anti-lactic sentiment.

Fair enough. But I wouldn't bet my life on measuring the exact extent of the buttery feel. I assume you don't object to all white wines that have gone through malolactic fermentation? Because there was a mellowing richness but also plenty of steel cut and drive. Far from the more southerly wines.

Although I love my acid fix, I insist on malolactic, unless it doesn't happen for natural reasons (e.g., because there's not enough malic acid to convert). I don't accept the Napa-originated storyboard that malolactic equals butter or popcorn. Maybe induced malolactic bacteria do that, but I would not expect that from a Chablis deity.

I have been told by winemakers (with no independent verification) that diacetyl -- the flavor of buttered popcorn -- is produced when a malolactic fermentation gets too hot. What confound me are the lactic flavors I routinely get when tasting young Syrah, even from ultra-traditional producers from the N Rhone. They aren't diacetyl per se, more akin to buttermilk or creme fraiche. I've assumed that they're the remnant of a fairly recent MLF, but why I get it in Syrah and not other grapes is still a mystery to me.

Mark Lipton

If you ever find out please let me know. I find those notes really annoying.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
I don't accept the Napa-originated storyboard that malolactic equals butter or popcorn. Maybe induced malolactic bacteria do that, but I would not expect that from a Chablis deity.

Ok, good to know. And let's not make too much over my note. Perhaps my 'melted butter' would not be your melted butter. All rather fanciful.

In other news, lots of good wines tasted today but very impressed with 2017s from Chandon de Briailles, they are making many efforts for the wines to be more approachable, and they sure seem that way. Will be curious about aging.

Although tonight's nightcap of 1988 Chandon de Briailles Île des Vergelesses was an interesting example of the old regime. Pretty and succulent fruit in the middle but still so many mouth-clenching tannins.

 

[Bill Lundstrom]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
I don't accept the Napa-originated storyboard that malolactic equals butter or popcorn. Maybe induced malolactic bacteria do that, but I would not expect that from a Chablis deity.

Ok, good to know. And let's not make too much over my note. Perhaps my 'melted butter' would not be your melted butter. All rather fanciful.

In other news, lots of good wines tasted today but very impressed with 2017s from Chandon de Briailles, they are making many efforts for the wines to be more approachable, and they sure seem that way. Will be curious about aging.

Although tonight's nightcap of 1988 Chandon de Briailles Île des Vergelesses was an interesting example of the old regime. Pretty and succulent fruit in the middle but still so many mouth-clenching tannins.

did you visit there?

 

[Rahsaan]

Yes, lovely visit with Claude. 16 was devastating, only one Savigny cuvee produced, a blend across sites. But 2017s from barrel were very charming and apparently good quantities.

Although the 88 was purchased from a merchant in town. Oldest wine we purchased at domaine was 06 Caillerets, which I look forward to opening soon.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Rahsaan:
Yes, lovely visit with Claude. 16 was devastating, only one Savigny cuvee produced, a blend across sites. But 2017s from barrel were very charming and apparently good quantities.

Although the 88 was purchased from a merchant in town. Oldest wine we purchased at domaine was 06 Caillerets, which I look forward to opening soon.

The interview with François de Nicolay in Between the Vines makes it sound like the process has changed significantly in the last five years or so, so that, for those who liked them before, past performance is no guarantee of future results. And yes, the increasing use of whole cluster, and the consequent increase in the measure of intracellular, coupled with low to no SO2, seems to be making them much more approachable when young, at least when not separated from their parents at the border.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
...the increasing use of whole cluster.

Surely you mean decreasing use of whole cluster? That was my understanding. And when combined with various other measures (including a bit of carbonic maceration on all the reds, including Corton) it is indeed a whole different world. (At least for the Briailles wines. I understand that François de Nicolay has his own negoce operation but didn't taste anything there.)

Will be curious to see how it all evolves.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

I meant increasing because the greater the percentage of whole cluster, the more intracelular fermentation takes place before crush time. Perhaps that's what your "bit of carbonic maceration" refers to, since I don't believe they do any actual (ostensive) carbonic or semi-carbonic, like Pacalet, etc.

 

[MLipton]

O., I don’t think that whole cluster fermentation means what you think. The clusters are still crushed, but whole cluster guarantees more stem inclusion. BTW, even CM isn’t intracellular fermentation. The yeasts operate on the whole grapes, but the fermentation takes place in the yeast as per normal.

Mark Lipton

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by MLipton:
O., I don’t think that whole cluster fermentation means what you think. The clusters are still crushed, but whole cluster guarantees more stem inclusion. BTW, even CM isn’t intracellular fermentation. The yeasts operate on the whole grapes, but the fermentation takes place in the yeast as per normal.

Mark Lipton

Just to recap, in conventional maceration the crush happens right at the beginning, so yeast fermentation occurs in contact with the skins (generating, among other things, more tannin). In carbonic or semi-carbonic maceration, the clusters stay whole, and most of the juice ferments while still inside the grape (although some grapes at the bottom may be crushed by gravity and undergo conventional fermentation). This is the intracellular fermentation I am talking about. The skin does not come into play at this point, and fermentation is carried out by anaerobic, enzymatic metabolism inside each berry, i.e., without the interaction of yeasts (so the yeasts do not operate on the whole grapes).

But a crush has to happen at the end, to generate the juice to be bottled, at which point everything becomes conventional, and yeasts come fully into play. But the wine will taste quite different because intracellular has its own enzimatic chemistry.

The use of whole cluster at CdB appears to me to be responsible for the hint of semi-carbonic (those middle-eastern spices) that I found in a half-dozen recent cuvées (2013 to 2016), and I believe this is due to the little bit of time in which intracellular is happening inside the whole clusters before the crush. Destemming makes intracellular impossible, but it will happen naturally within the whole clusters until the moment of pigeage (not necessarily immediate).

I may be wrong about this being the source of these spice aromas, and François doesn't make this connection explicit in the interview, but whole cluster should correlate with a degree of intracellular happening before pigeage.

 

[Rahsaan]

I can't wade too far into these details, but it seems to be that you can have carbonic maceration (to any extent) with or without stems.

I will also say that Claude was pretty clear that they have been using fewer stems over time, especially since the days of her mother. As part of the general effort to focus more on the fruit. The bulk of my experience with the wines was from vintages in the 00s, so I will be curious to taste more of the newer vintages going forward.

 

[Rahsaan]

In other news, again lots of great wines tasted yesterday. One highlight was a lovely visit at Voillot, Jean-Pierre was extremely friendly and showed a very promising (but limited quantity) selection of 2016s in bottle. Lots of material, lots of fragrance, lots of elegance.

He was also very generous in giving us a bottle of his 2014 Pommard Rugiens, which we drank while sweating over the first half of the Germany-Sweden match. I guess there were weather issues in Pommard (and elsewhere) in 2014, that did not always produce the longest-lived wines. One benefit is that this beauty was lovely to drink right now. So refined, so elegant, with just a touch of the fine tannins by the end of the bottle.

By the time it came down to Germany's miracle, we were going through 2005 Lignier-Michelot MSD Les Faconnières. Very dark, very sexy, very silky, very captivating to drink.

And the final highlight was a wonderful lunch at Le Soufflot in Meursault. Remarkable winelist with very approachable pricing, and the inventive serious whimsical food was just as good. (Comte with garlic confiture stands out in my mind for the wine match, but every course was a winner). And the wine was 2011 Dujac GC Aux Combottes, so easy to enjoy right now, and even easier to admire.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Rahsaan:
In other news, again lots of great wines tasted yesterday. One highlight was a lovely visit at Voillot, Jean-Pierre was extremely friendly and showed a very promising (but limited quantity) selection of 2016s in bottle. Lots of material, lots of fragrance, lots of elegance.

He was also very generous in giving us a bottle of his 2014 Pommard Rugiens, which we drank while sweating over the first half of the Germany-Sweden match. I guess there were weather issues in Pommard (and elsewhere) in 2014, that did not always produce the longest-lived wines. One benefit is that this beauty was lovely to drink right now. So refined, so elegant, with just a touch of the fine tannins by the end of the bottle.

By the time it came down to Germany's miracle, we were going through 2005 Lignier-Michelot MSD Les Faconnières. Very dark, very sexy, very silky, very captivating to drink.

And the final highlight was a wonderful lunch at Le Soufflot in Meursault. Remarkable winelist with very approachable pricing, and the inventive serious whimsical food was just as good. (Comte with garlic confiture stands out in my mind for the wine match, but every course was a winner). And the wine was 2011 Dujac GC Aux Combottes, so easy to enjoy right now, and even easier to admire.

Voillot wines are really a hidden gem. Nice to hear about the 2014 Rugiens as I have a few bottles.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by MLipton:
O., I don’t think that whole cluster fermentation means what you think. The clusters are still crushed, but whole cluster guarantees more stem inclusion. BTW, even CM isn’t intracellular fermentation. The yeasts operate on the whole grapes, but the fermentation takes place in the yeast as per normal.

Mark Lipton

Just to recap, in conventional maceration the crush happens right at the beginning, so yeast fermentation occurs in contact with the skins (generating, among other things, more tannin). In carbonic or semi-carbonic maceration, the clusters stay whole, and most of the juice ferments while still inside the grape (although some grapes at the bottom may be crushed by gravity and undergo conventional fermentation). This is the intracellular fermentation I am talking about. The skin does not come into play at this point, and fermentation is carried out by anaerobic, enzymatic metabolism inside each berry, i.e., without the interaction of yeasts (so the yeasts do not operate on the whole grapes).

But a crush has to happen at the end, to generate the juice to be bottled, at which point everything becomes conventional, and yeasts come fully into play. But the wine will taste quite different because intracellular has its own enzimatic chemistry.

The use of whole cluster at CdB appears to me to be responsible for the hint of semi-carbonic (those middle-eastern spices) that I found in a half-dozen recent cuvées (2013 to 2016), and I believe this is due to the little bit of time in which intracellular is happening inside the whole clusters before the crush. Destemming makes intracellular impossible, but it will happen naturally within the whole clusters until the moment of pigeage (not necessarily immediate).

I may be wrong about this being the source of these spice aromas, and François doesn't make this connection explicit in the interview, but whole cluster should correlate with a degree of intracellular happening before pigeage.

Most people associate those spice notes with the stems themselves, not carbonic maceration. The important part, as I remember it, is the fermentation takes place in the absence of oxygen. This doesn't really happen with whole cluster. It just means bunches are thrown in without destemming. The weight of the bunch will at least crush some berries and start the fermentation since yeasts will be present. So maybe we understand it similarly, it's just that I don't think that brief amount of pre-crushing makes much difference.