Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
... as well as those of the other erudite posters commenting on this thread.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
The one-two Givry-Chablis punch
- Thread starter Rahsaan
- Start date
Ian, like you I initially was skeptical of the concept of intracellular fermentation but further reading (especially the Goode article) convinced me that the term is being used correctly. The conversion of glucose and malate to ethanol is taking place within the cells of the grape using the enzymes I identify above. This view is supported by Jamie Goode, who — as a PhD plant biologist — is unlikely to be using the term in a sloppy sense. The grape cells are much less tolerant of ethanol and die at 2%, at which point other organisms take over. The point of the CO2 is to suppress the normal glycolysis pathways in the grapes.
Mark Lipton
Mark Lipton
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
'S up, Mark; 'twas your upthread posts that sent me to Jamie's article initially.
While he uses the term intracellar fermentation, he does not strictly define it, nor illustrate a process for fermenting microbes to enter and do their thing inside of living eukaryotic cells. Would be an interesting symbiosis, if so. A (very) quick scan of scholarly articles under 'intracellular fermentation' indicates research on accumulation of fermentation produces within fermenting organisms, but nothing on cells within cells. Wine-related articles under the same search term use it in the sense of fermentation within the grape, not within the grape cells. Maybe Jamie will respond to an inquiry through the Anorak site - I'll check it out.
Your last two sentences are the same as part of what I wrote - albeit more simply stated - which, in turn, were restatements of parts of Goode's work.
Muy obrigado for your comment.
While he uses the term intracellar fermentation, he does not strictly define it, nor illustrate a process for fermenting microbes to enter and do their thing inside of living eukaryotic cells. Would be an interesting symbiosis, if so. A (very) quick scan of scholarly articles under 'intracellular fermentation' indicates research on accumulation of fermentation produces within fermenting organisms, but nothing on cells within cells. Wine-related articles under the same search term use it in the sense of fermentation within the grape, not within the grape cells. Maybe Jamie will respond to an inquiry through the Anorak site - I'll check it out.
Your last two sentences are the same as part of what I wrote - albeit more simply stated - which, in turn, were restatements of parts of Goode's work.
Muy obrigado for your comment.
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
I don't see an email link on Goode's site, unfortunately.
Quick searches under enzymatic fermentation indicate processes to enhance biological fermentation, in such activities as cheese-making and ethanol production, by adding extra-organism enzymes into the feedstock. Enzymatic fermentation inside a living cell would just be metabolism, right?
Anyway, interesting topic.
Quick searches under enzymatic fermentation indicate processes to enhance biological fermentation, in such activities as cheese-making and ethanol production, by adding extra-organism enzymes into the feedstock. Enzymatic fermentation inside a living cell would just be metabolism, right?
Anyway, interesting topic.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
Interesting, and generally consistent with finding aromas that some associate with carbonic in wines that are vinified conventionally using whole cluster.
My only gripe would be the use of the word "carbonic" as synonymous with "intracellular" or "enzymatic" when the latter processes can outside of what are conventionally known as carbonic or semi-carbonic macerations.
For example:
"Professor Roger Boulton of UC Davis has pointed out that the contributions of whole cluster fermentation are at least due to two aspects: the intact berries of the whole cluster and the extraction and adsorption properties of the stems. The first is known as carbonic maceration where the berry cells undergo a biochemical modification internally (intra-berry anaerobic fermentation) producing a lifted fresh fruit-candy character."
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
By the way, reaching back upthread, Jeff sent me the link for writing Jamie Goode on the Wine Anorak website, and I reached out to him with a question on the meaning of intracellular fermentation - about two weeks ago, if memory serves.
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Rahsaan:
In other news, again lots of great wines tasted yesterday. One highlight was a lovely visit at Voillot, Jean-Pierre was extremely friendly and showed a very promising (but limited quantity) selection of 2016s in bottle. Lots of material, lots of fragrance, lots of elegance.
He was also very generous in giving us a bottle of his 2014 Pommard Rugiens, which we drank while sweating over the first half of the Germany-Sweden match. I guess there were weather issues in Pommard (and elsewhere) in 2014, that did not always produce the longest-lived wines. One benefit is that this beauty was lovely to drink right now. So refined, so elegant, with just a touch of the fine tannins by the end of the bottle.
By the time it came down to Germany's miracle, we were going through 2005 Lignier-Michelot MSD Les Faconnières. Very dark, very sexy, very silky, very captivating to drink.
And the final highlight was a wonderful lunch at Le Soufflot in Meursault. Remarkable winelist with very approachable pricing, and the inventive serious whimsical food was just as good. (Comte with garlic confiture stands out in my mind for the wine match, but every course was a winner). And the wine was 2011 Dujac GC Aux Combottes, so easy to enjoy right now, and even easier to admire.
Voillot wines are really a hidden gem. Nice to hear about the 2014 Rugiens as I have a few bottles.
Ahem! To get this conversation back to burgundy, let me just say that Lignier-Michelot is also a hidden gem. They’ve been making lovely wines there for at least ten years and the MSD premier crus are a relative bargain among CdN wines.
It was my friend who bought the Lignier-Michelot, I haven't really followed them. Definitely delicious and perhaps worth more of my attention, although 'relative bargain among CdN wines' can still be a pretty painful thing.
Also, speaking of Voillot, I suppose folks heard about his recall because of corked 2015s and potentially 2016s as well. Tough for him (and some consumers), but good of him to be open about it.
Also, speaking of Voillot, I suppose folks heard about his recall because of corked 2015s and potentially 2016s as well. Tough for him (and some consumers), but good of him to be open about it.
originally posted by Rahsaan:
It was my friend who bought the Lignier-Michelot, I haven't really followed them. Definitely delicious and perhaps worth more of my attention, although 'relative bargain among CdN wines' can still be a pretty painful thing.
Also, speaking of Voillot, I suppose folks heard about his recall because of corked 2015s and potentially 2016s as well. Tough for him (and some consumers), but good of him to be open about it.
Well, shit. This is a huge bummer. I hope it doesn't have long term consequences. I have 6b of 2015 Champans in my cellar after having it at our Vintage 59 wine dinner (where none of 3 bottles were corked). I might just roll the dice and keep them. Ouch.
FWIW, I reached out to the rep I deal with for the importer who had not heard of this issue. She's going to look into it and get back to me. The bottles are individually numbered so I hope that it's just lots, not the whole vintage.
That kind of loss can really hamper the future of a domain.
That kind of loss can really hamper the future of a domain.