Generally, wine fridges and cellars have much higher humidity than refrigerators. My wine refrigerator has a water reservoir for this purpose. Most of us have had the experience of putting a bottle of sparkling wine in the refrigerator for several months only to find that the cork has shrunk and dried up, and the wine has lost a great deal of CO2.
Coravin, etc.
- Thread starter Ian Fitzsimmons
- Start date
Generally, wine fridges and cellars have much higher humidity than refrigerators. My wine refrigerator has a water reservoir for this purpose. Most of us have had the experience of putting a bottle of sparkling wine in the refrigerator for several months only to find that the cork has shrunk and dried up, and the wine has lost a great deal of CO2.
Keith Levenberg
Keith Levenberg
I dabbled with the freezer thing. Cannot recommend. It seems to strip the wine of acidity and who knows what else - when you defrost, you will notice a heavy sludge the wine needs to be decanted off of.
I had never heard that bit about refrigeration, but it explains a LOT. I have always wondered why a bottle forgotten on the counter somehow managed to last longer than one "preserved" in the fridge.
Peter Creasey
Peter Creasey
The idea that wine fades faster in a refrigerator is counter-intuitive and runs counter to my experience. This is my normal strategy with left-over wine and I have never observed any more deterioration; of course, our left-overs don't stay left over very long.
. . . . Pete
. . . . Pete
Jayson Cohen
Jayson Cohen
Merry Christmas, folks who celebrate it.
I’m highly skeptical about reducing the redox chemistry of open, much less never-opened, bottles to the throw away line “oxygen is more soluble at colder temperatures” to justify freezing or high humidity cellars. I’ve never seen a real study or realistic chemical explanation that showed the effects of either. Does anyone know of any? Maybe we should ping Jamie Goode - he would probably know.
I’ve had anecdotally excellent experience with unopened bottles in refrigerators (low atmospheric humidity) at 52 F over long term and normal fridge Ts around 37-40 F over medium term, as well as opened bottles of white (dry and sweet) at normal fridge Ts over short term (heading toward medium for some sweet wines). When I open reds, I tend not to refrigerate open bottles but I’ve not noticed any trends between doing it or not.
I don’t know if what I’ve done and do is better than anything else. But I’m fine with it.
What I think is that people do what’s worked for them. Then they find anecdotal reasons to justify it and criticize other practices. Until they try something else and find they like it better. Then they find anecdotal reasons to justify it and criticize other practices....
I’m highly skeptical about reducing the redox chemistry of open, much less never-opened, bottles to the throw away line “oxygen is more soluble at colder temperatures” to justify freezing or high humidity cellars. I’ve never seen a real study or realistic chemical explanation that showed the effects of either. Does anyone know of any? Maybe we should ping Jamie Goode - he would probably know.
I’ve had anecdotally excellent experience with unopened bottles in refrigerators (low atmospheric humidity) at 52 F over long term and normal fridge Ts around 37-40 F over medium term, as well as opened bottles of white (dry and sweet) at normal fridge Ts over short term (heading toward medium for some sweet wines). When I open reds, I tend not to refrigerate open bottles but I’ve not noticed any trends between doing it or not.
I don’t know if what I’ve done and do is better than anything else. But I’m fine with it.
What I think is that people do what’s worked for them. Then they find anecdotal reasons to justify it and criticize other practices. Until they try something else and find they like it better. Then they find anecdotal reasons to justify it and criticize other practices....
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
For what it's worth, I agree with virtually every word Jayson just said, particularly about my anecdotal evidence of refrigerating reds and whites--it seems to do something for whites and nothing for reds. I'm perfectly open to being shown that I'm now just operating on a bias from early accidental exerience, and I have no basis for making either a recommendation or an argument, but there it is.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
Right, and I seldom use the fridge for anything more than a few days, but the increased oxygen absorption seems to come from cold alone (Jamie Goode confirms it in Flawless) regardless of humidity.
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
I'll freeze a wine that's okay, but I'm not wild about (doesn't justify the calories, in the phrase of another WDer) in a ziplock bag and use if for soups and sauces, much the same as I do with stocks. Seems to work okay. In my freezer, the wine does not freeze solid, but turns into a kind of slushy texture. I squeeze as much air out of the bag as possible to minimize interaction with atmospheric oxygen.
I would imagine the principle effect of a lower temperature is to slow the rate of oxidation reactions between oxygen in the air and the reduced molecules in wine. Lower temperatures should slow the rate of reaction at the wine's surface by reducing the average kinetic energy of the individual mass particles - the atoms and molecules (heat is molecular-scale kinetic energy: lower temperature = less heat = less kinetic energy).
The reduction of kinetic entry should, in turn, lower the frequency of collisions between these particles (1) in general; and (2) specifically between particles with sufficient energy to activate the reaction. Fewer activating collisions per time unit = slower rate of oxidation.
I'm not well-versed in diffusion equations, but it seems that diffusion of oxygen through a matrix of solid phase (frozen) wine molecules would, in addition, be very much slower than though wine in liquid phase - compare this invisible process with the mundane observation of an iron object rusting at the surface only.
In the end, this is probably a question for Dr. Mark.
I would imagine the principle effect of a lower temperature is to slow the rate of oxidation reactions between oxygen in the air and the reduced molecules in wine. Lower temperatures should slow the rate of reaction at the wine's surface by reducing the average kinetic energy of the individual mass particles - the atoms and molecules (heat is molecular-scale kinetic energy: lower temperature = less heat = less kinetic energy).
The reduction of kinetic entry should, in turn, lower the frequency of collisions between these particles (1) in general; and (2) specifically between particles with sufficient energy to activate the reaction. Fewer activating collisions per time unit = slower rate of oxidation.
I'm not well-versed in diffusion equations, but it seems that diffusion of oxygen through a matrix of solid phase (frozen) wine molecules would, in addition, be very much slower than though wine in liquid phase - compare this invisible process with the mundane observation of an iron object rusting at the surface only.
In the end, this is probably a question for Dr. Mark.
Sorry, guys: I was caught up in festivization and not paying attention to this thread. Ian, you’re way overthinking things but have the right idea. I think for the fridge that the increased solubility of oxygen is a red herring. Because we’re talking about chemical kinetics (the rate of oxidation) we need only concern ourselves with the slowest step, the so-called rate limiting step. In the absence of any real knowledge I will assert that the rate of dissolution of oxygen into wine is highly unlikely to be rate limiting, so its concentration in solution won’t change the overall rate. Instead, the rate limiting event is likely to be oxygen ingress through/past the stopper. Put another way, Le Chateliers Principle states that, as the oxygen in solution is consumed through reactions, it will promote the solubiluzation of gaseous oxygen from the headspace to restore equilibrium.
Another useful nugget from kinetics: as a general rule, a drop in temperature of 10 degrees C will result in a reduction in rate of a chemical reaction by a factor of two, so chilling a wine from 25 C to 5 C would be expected to slow oxidation by a factor of 4.
Chemboy Lipton
Another useful nugget from kinetics: as a general rule, a drop in temperature of 10 degrees C will result in a reduction in rate of a chemical reaction by a factor of two, so chilling a wine from 25 C to 5 C would be expected to slow oxidation by a factor of 4.
Chemboy Lipton
Peter Creasey
Peter Creasey
Mark, what a great on-topic response! (Especially, perhaps, since it coincides with my expressed opinion!)
. . . . Pete
. . . . Pete
robert ames
robert ames
wine at freezer temperatures is slushy because it contains anti-freeze--alcohol.
the remaining liquid is therefore a "wine concentrate" if you will.
in my callow youth living in anchorage alaska we would set out on the back porch a big jug of almeden 'mountain chablis' at 10 degrees or so for a couple hours and then pour it through a sieve for a wine 'whisky' or whatever you want to call it. powerful stuff. those were the days.
the remaining liquid is therefore a "wine concentrate" if you will.
in my callow youth living in anchorage alaska we would set out on the back porch a big jug of almeden 'mountain chablis' at 10 degrees or so for a couple hours and then pour it through a sieve for a wine 'whisky' or whatever you want to call it. powerful stuff. those were the days.
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
On the reaction effect of temperature: lower is to slower - I had that right.
On diffusion, you think of wine freezing in bottles; I think of it freezing in ice cube trays. I imagine some combination of temperature and diffusion is probably limiting in the latter case. In ziplock bags, I guess oxygen abundance limits, in analogy to bottle headspace - maybe slower seepage.
On overthinking, I'll have to think about it.
Thanks, Chemboy.
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
My folks used to freeze hard cider to make back-alley applejack. Alcohol cryoextraction?
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
Rieslingfan has proposed 375s with screwcap closure, to eliminate (or minimize) headspace. I have yet to acquire some for testing, but a reasonable idea.