Gamay and Brett ('14 Coquelet Chiroubles VV)

M

MLipton

Mark Lipton
Last night I opened my second bottle of the 2014 Damien Coquelet Chiroubles VV. I have limited exposure to this producer but my previous encounters were at least passably good. This bottle presented an attractive, fruit-forward Gamay that was overlain with a moderate Brett note. Experience has taught me that I am one of the more Brett-tolerant wine drinkers I know of (though Joe Perry in the distant past did present me with a Brett-infected Souhaut Syrah that was poopy to the DNPIM extent) yet I find that I consider it an unalloyed flaw in Gamay.

In wines of the Rhone Valley I consider Brett to be an aspect of complexity, yet in wines of the Cote d'Or and Beaujolais I am much less tolerant. Part of this I am sure is conditioning: my formative experiences with Gamay were all free of Brett, but my early education in the Rhone Valley involved a number of wines that were all Brett-inflected. Beyond that, however, I wonder if there are certain grapes and wine styles that interact with Brett better than others, much as some Cote d'Or winemakers will tell you that their Grand Cru bottlings tolerate new oak to a greater extent than their village bottlings.

Do any of you have a similar experience with Brett's interaction with different types of wine?

Mark Lipton
 
i'm wondering if this has something to do with your question: gamay and pinot noir (especially gamay) produces and wine that has predominantly fruit flavours, whereas syrah, mourvedre, cabernet franc, etc make wines with more non-fruit complexities. syrah--tapanade, game meat, violets, mourvedre--blood, iron, meat, cabernet franc--rose petals, pencil shavings, graphite, cigar box.

brett complexities are non-fruit, and maybe adding non-fruit flavours to a wine that already has non-fruit flavours is less jarring than it is to an inherently fruitly wine.
 
Brett is a flaw, period. But, like that imperfection in a flawless diamond, can sometimes make the sum more than it's parts. Having had too many wines spoiled by said flaw, I'd rather it not be there, in any wines.
 
originally posted by MarkS:
Brett is a flaw, period. But, like that imperfection in a flawless diamond, can sometimes make the sum more than it's [sic] parts. Having had too many wines spoiled by said flaw, I'd rather it not be there, in any wines.
Click to expand...

Perhaps, but as Comrade Brézème has pointed out many times, Brett masks terroir. I just don't see it as an element that adds complexity even in small quantities. It is something we have all had to deal with forever, so many people make excuses for its presence.
 
Brett is not just brett. It is responsible for a number of compounds with distinctly different aromas. I never like it when brett dominates a wine, but I've certainly had wines with "good brett" and "bad brett."
 
I used to be more brett-tolerant than I am now. The more I drink the more I see that brett is repetitive, ultimately doing just as Comrade Brezeme says.
 
We are going through a very unfortunate period where people are associating dirty cellars and low SO2 with natural wines and it is resulting in brett flawed wines everywhere, on the par with CENSORized oak fruit bombs. I am so fucking sick of pouring wines down the sink. I'm done with it.

The winemakers need to clean it up. And honestly Beaujolais is a real problem area.

I knew we were in trouble when there was so much fawning over Pacalet...every single wine I've had of his was badly brett or VA flawed. And then him teaching all the Beaujolais folks how to "make wine". The emperor has no clothes.

The holy grail of overpriced Metras...impossible to find (though recently starting to show up at $50+/bottle for Beaujolais...I've never had a non flawed bottle...I spent $500 on Metras last time we were in Paris and most of it went down the sink...give me a fucking break. I'm maybe willing to have one bottle in four not work out...but not that ratio.

Yet there are many who never have problems...
Jean Paul Brun
Roilette

etc.

I'm on a tear. Natural wines are great when they work out, but somehow the experiment is getting old.
 
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
Brett is not just brett. It is responsible for a number of compounds with distinctly different aromas. I never like it when brett dominates a wine, but I've certainly had wines with "good brett" and "bad brett."
Click to expand...

read jamie goode's second edition 'the science of wine'. yes indeed, brett has number of different strains with a number of different flavour manifestations. each person has different responses to the various flavours that may be imparted.

one of the things that strikes me (a person that really enjoys non-fruit flavours in wine) is how happy we are to revel in the flavours in cheese that are the product of the microbe of fermentation, but how unacceptable this is among those that have zero tolerance for brett flavours in wine.

if a cheese was considered to be 'unflawed' only if it had flavours/aromas that came from the only milk, the gustatory world would be a much more boring place.
 
originally posted by robert ames:
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
Brett is not just brett. It is responsible for a number of compounds with distinctly different aromas. I never like it when brett dominates a wine, but I've certainly had wines with "good brett" and "bad brett."
Click to expand...

one of the things that strikes me (a person that really enjoys non-fruit flavours in wine) is how happy we are to revel in the flavours in cheese that are the product of the microbe of fermentation, but how unacceptable this is among those that have zero tolerance for brett flavours in wine.

if a cheese was considered to be 'unflawed' only if it had flavours/aromas that came from the only milk, the gustatory world would be a much more boring place.
Click to expand...

I think the argument is basically flawed. We don't disagree about the complexity of cheese and the origin of said complexity, however there are endless microbial flaws that can occur in the cheesemaking process. Fortunately for us many of those never make it out of the door of the aging cave.

It is a bit more like native yeast vs selected yeast fermentations in wine, where the former often have much more interesting and complex flavors than the latter. If you love the purity of wine grape juice, just drink that.

And as much as I like earthy flavors, most manifestations of brett spoil wine for me.

And I don't get Pacalet either and drink boatloads of Brun.
 
originally posted by robert ames:
one of the things that strikes me (a person that really enjoys non-fruit flavours in wine) is how happy we are to revel in the flavours in cheese that are the product of the microbe of fermentation, but how unacceptable this is among those that have zero tolerance for brett flavours in wine.
Click to expand...
I don't see brettanomyces anywhere in this article on cheese microbes.
 
originally posted by BJ:
Natural wines are great when they work out, but somehow the experiment is getting old.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't call it an experiment but I agree that the low success rate is getting tiresome. But I think drinkers are as much to blame as winemakers. If the latter use low or no sulfur and the average hipster digs the resulting flaws as being the price you pay for being natural, there is no disincentive, because any batch that goes wrong can just be sent to Scandinavia (where Mark E fights the good fight all by his lonesome).
 
I'm still wondering about this "natural footprint" business. If it means the presence (presumably in acceptable amounts, and mixing somewhat harmoniously) of one or more out of brett, v.a., yeast, and turbidity, then I prefer natural wines without a natural footprint. I see no compelling reason why we can't have our cake and eat it too, and every now and then (though perhaps not often enough) I encounter them.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
...there is no disincentive, because any batch that goes wrong can just be sent to Scandinavia (where Mark E fights the good fight all by his lonesome).
Click to expand...

Ouch!! Talk about Otto bait. That's rather harsh, O., accurate though it may be.

Mark Lipton
 
BTW, thank you for the thoughtful replies. I see that I am not alone in this and that, perhaps, I've opened up the proverbial can of worms. Given the companion thread on VA, perhaps we should deem this month "wine flaws February."

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by BJ:
I am so fucking sick of pouring wines down the sink. I'm done with it.

The winemakers need to clean it up. And honestly Beaujolais is a real problem area.
Click to expand...

Guignier Au bon grès Fleurie 2014 went down teh fatsink owing to massive levels of VA. Buhmmmmer. And not cheap.
 
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
...there is no disincentive, because any batch that goes wrong can just be sent to Scandinavia (where Mark E fights the good fight all by his lonesome).
Click to expand...

Ouch!! Talk about Otto bait. That's rather harsh, O., accurate though it may be.

Mark Lipton
Click to expand...

Granted, even though our personal experience in Norway and Sweden this summer.

Otto, otoh, gets an exemption because Finland is not part of Scandinavia (only to lose it through love of Musar).
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
originally posted by robert ames:
one of the things that strikes me (a person that really enjoys non-fruit flavours in wine) is how happy we are to revel in the flavours in cheese that are the product of the microbe of fermentation, but how unacceptable this is among those that have zero tolerance for brett flavours in wine.
Click to expand...
I don't see brettanomyces anywhere in this article on cheese microbes.
Click to expand...

i was not implying that brett is found in cheese.
 
originally posted by BJ:
.... somehow the experiment is getting old.
Click to expand...

Not sure what you mean 'getting' old.

I was skeptical 15 years ago when the number of funky flawed Peyra wines could not compensate for the good bottles. I don't think I ever had a good bottle of Claude Courtois, despite the raves he received from some. Although I was a grad student during that period and stopped well before $500 in my experimentation with any given winemaker.
 
originally posted by robert ames:
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
originally posted by robert ames:
one of the things that strikes me (a person that really enjoys non-fruit flavours in wine) is how happy we are to revel in the flavours in cheese that are the product of the microbe of fermentation, but how unacceptable this is among those that have zero tolerance for brett flavours in wine.
Click to expand...
I don't see brettanomyces anywhere in this article on cheese microbes.
Click to expand...

i was not implying that brett is found in cheese.
Click to expand...

Sounded like you were...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top