Four

R

Rahsaan

Rahsaan
2004 Domaine de la Mordore Lirac La Dame Rousse
I bought this for my wife because she usually likes warm Southern wines but I was a bit disappointed in the gritty acid/tannin component that sliced through the moderate fruit and made it seem a bit off kilter. I know this is not a blockbuster cuvee and it is not a blockbuster year. So should I assume this is on the downslope or will it in fact age into something better?

2006 La Spinetta Moscato dAsti Bricco Quaglia
This may be goofy stuff but I thought the succulent fruit and somewhat refreshing finish were good fun and perfect for the casual Pakistani meal.

2002 Gimonnet Champagne Fleuron
Solid and correct but a bit unispiring. Would have rather drunk more of the Moscato to tell you the truth.

2007 Dnnhoff Oberhuser Leistenberg Kabinett
I found this dissapointingly broad, simple, and soft. Not heavy at all, but still soft. I see others have loved this wine and perhaps we didnt give it enough time for the character to emerge. Admittedly I have not been a huge fan of this wine in previous vintages, but usually because I found the combination of sour crispness and a broad frame to be offputting. But at least I remembered it having more character than this bottle.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
Four2004 Domaine de la Mordore Lirac La Dame Rousse
I bought this for my wife because she usually likes warm Southern wines but I was a bit disappointed in the gritty acid/tannin component that sliced through the moderate fruit and made it seem a bit off kilter. I know this is not a blockbuster cuvee and it is not a blockbuster year. So should I assume this is on the downslope or will it in fact age into something better?

2006 La Spinetta Moscato dAsti Bricco Quaglia
This may be goofy stuff but I thought the succulent fruit and somewhat refreshing finish were good fun and perfect for the casual Pakistani meal.

2002 Gimonnet Champagne Fleuron
Solid and correct but a bit unispiring. Would have rather drunk more of the Moscato to tell you the truth.

2007 Dnnhoff Oberhuser Leistenberg Kabinett
I found this dissapointingly broad, simple, and soft. Not heavy at all, but still soft. I see others have loved this wine and perhaps we didnt give it enough time for the character to emerge. Admittedly I have not been a huge fan of this wine in previous vintages, but usually because I found the combination of sour crispness and a broad frame to be offputting. But at least I remembered it having more character than this bottle.
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Spinetta really shines with their Moscato IMO. That was their first wine and still their best. Every time I open a bottle it gets scoffed at, yet the bottle is drained quickly. I never had Pakastani food, can you describe it?
 
I had the 2005 version of that Donnhoff. It was my first. My notes on it on the Squires board led to an interesting discussion on the difference between regular acidity and the cut of the wine. I might be reading too much into it, Rahsaan, but does it seem like it doesn't have a good cut?
 
I don't follow Mordore much, though the lower cuvees can be OK and unspoofed. As a rule of thumb an 04 CdR will have a couple of more years of life in it at the least. You're describing a maladroit wine, not an over the hill one I think. By the way, there are plenty of people who like years like 04. At the least, it's a very good vintage.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
I don't follow Mordore much, though the lower cuvees can be OK and unspoofed..You're describing a maladroit wine, not an over the hill one I think..
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Ok, nice to know.
 
originally posted by SteveTimko:
it seem like it doesn't have a good cut?
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This 07 was not showing much cut at the moment. Although realize that I probably look for more cut than the average person. And it wasn't thick or syrupy so I'm guessing it has more to show.
 
originally posted by SteveTimko:
I had the 2005 version of that Donnhoff. It was my first. My notes on it on the Squires board led to an interesting discussion on the difference between regular acidity and the cut of the wine. I might be reading too much into it, Rahsaan, but does it seem like it doesn't have a good cut?
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That "cut" comment is something that comes up a lot on the web from folks who were weaned on the 2001 vintage and it's more apparent acidity. Recent vintages (excepting 2002 and 2004) have been much richer and generally lower acid, so a 2001-like cut won't be there. 2007 is very balanced, so no single element stands out of the mix.
 
originally posted by Loren Sonkin:

Spinetta really shines with their Moscato IMO. That was their first wine and still their best. Every time I open a bottle it gets scoffed at, yet the bottle is drained quickly. I never had Pakastani food, can you describe it?
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Yes, I agree wholeheartedly and have experienced that same scoff at the wine, but the bottle is dry, phenomenon! There is nothing wrong with a wine that is a well made bottle of fun. That particular producer is the best I've had of the style.
 
originally posted by Jeff Pinhey, Halifax:
originally posted by Loren Sonkin:

Spinetta really shines with their Moscato IMO. That was their first wine and still their best. Every time I open a bottle it gets scoffed at, yet the bottle is drained quickly...
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Yes, I agree wholeheartedly and have experienced that same scoff at the wine...
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I initially scoffed because I didn't think I would like a wine from La Spinetta. But this was delicious stuff indeed.
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
I thought this was going to be about Miles?
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Me too. Back in 1983 I was in Japan with Eddie "Cleanhead" Vinson and one night, during a radio broadcast in Tokyo we opened with a blisteringly-fast version of "Four". We absolutely nailed it, setting the tone for one of the most memorable shows I've ever been party to.

On the train to Sendai the next day, I asked him why he'd called that particular song.

"It's one of my favorites that I wrote" was his reply.

"I thought that was a Miles tune?" I said.

"Son of a bitch stole it from me. He was playing in my band when I wrote it. Eventually gave me some money for it though."

-Eden (crazy about you baby, but I just ain't got the price, you're a high class mama, so I guess it ain't no dice)
 
originally posted by Eden Mylunsch:
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
I thought this was going to be about Miles?
Click to expand...

Me too. Back in 1983 I was in Japan with Eddie "Cleanhead" Vinson and one night, during a radio broadcast in Tokyo we opened with a blisteringly-fast version of "Four". We absolutely nailed it, setting the tone for one of the most memorable shows I've ever been party to.

On the train to Sendai the next day, I asked him why he'd called that particular song.

"It's one of my favorites that I wrote" was his reply.

"I thought that was a Miles tune?" I said.

"Son of a bitch stole it from me. He was playing in my band when I wrote it. Eventually gave me some money for it though."

-Eden (crazy about you baby, but I just ain't got the price, you're a high class mama, so I guess it ain't no dice)
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interesting story, Eden. Isn't the only one like that -- e.g., "Nardis" (actually, I'm not sure that Bill Evans ever got some money out of it, though).

But as a non-musician, "Four" sounds to me like a composition that musically was doing what was going on in the late 1950s/early 1960s -- modal? If Miles was in Cleanhead's band, that surely would have been in late 1940s/early 1950s, no?
 
The song originally appeared on a Miles LP (Blue Haze) released in 1954 on Prestige. This would put it at the closing stages of bop and make it one of the earlier modal experiments (perhaps Don Rice can shed more light on this important transitional phase). FWIW, John Coltrane spent time in Cleanhead's band as well, and Ornette Coleman played in Pee Wee Crayton's band, but that was as a favor to Ornette's family back in Texas. Pee Wee said that he wound up paying him to just sit on the bandstand with the other horns and pretend to play, seeing as how this was right at the beginning of Coleman's harmolodic experimentation and his style didn't exactly mesh with that of the rest of the band.

Another track ("Tune Up") from Blue Haze is now also recognized as being a Vinson composition. Whether this was Miles just stealing the song outright or perhaps it was a question of recording session convenience because Davis had a publishing deal and Cleanhead didn't is purely conjecture, invariably brought up by Miles' apologists, unable to separate the genius in his music from the turmoil of his personality. Bill Evans definitely got screwed on the publishing rights to several songs on "Kind of Blue".

Vinson seemed okay with the way things worked out, and it's nice to see that he's now getting the appropriate composer's credit on recordings and reissues of the song by Davis and other artists.

-Eden (and presumably, the Vinson estate receives the occasional royalty check)
 
originally posted by Eden Mylunsch:
The song originally appeared on a Miles LP (Blue Haze) released in 1954 on Prestige. This would put it at the closing stages of bop and make it one of the earlier modal experiments (perhaps Don Rice can shed more light on this important transitional phase). FWIW, John Coltrane spent time in Cleanhead's band as well, and Ornette Coleman played in Pee Wee Crayton's band, but that was as a favor to Ornette's family back in Texas. Pee Wee said that he wound up paying him to just sit on the bandstand with the other horns and pretend to play, seeing as how this was right at the beginning of Coleman's harmolodic experimentation and his style didn't exactly mesh with that of the rest of the band.

Another track ("Tune Up") from Blue Haze is now also recognized as being a Vinson composition. Whether this was Miles just stealing the song outright or perhaps it was a question of recording session convenience because Davis had a publishing deal and Cleanhead didn't is purely conjecture, invariably brought up by Miles' apologists, unable to separate the genius in his music from the turmoil of his personality. Bill Evans definitely got screwed on the publishing rights to several songs on "Kind of Blue".

Vinson seemed okay with the way things worked out, and it's nice to see that he's now getting the appropriate composer's credit on recordings and reissues of the song by Davis and other artists.

-Eden (and presumably, the Vinson estate receives the occasional royalty check)
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Thanks, Eden. I'd forgotten the Blue Haze recording. Actually, I think there were a couple of different recordings of it about that time. I'll have to go back and check.
 
originally posted by Claude Kolm:
originally posted by Eden Mylunsch:
The song originally appeared on a Miles LP (Blue Haze) released in 1954 on Prestige. This would put it at the closing stages of bop and make it one of the earlier modal experiments (perhaps Don Rice can shed more light on this important transitional phase). FWIW, John Coltrane spent time in Cleanhead's band as well, and Ornette Coleman played in Pee Wee Crayton's band, but that was as a favor to Ornette's family back in Texas. Pee Wee said that he wound up paying him to just sit on the bandstand with the other horns and pretend to play, seeing as how this was right at the beginning of Coleman's harmolodic experimentation and his style didn't exactly mesh with that of the rest of the band.

Another track ("Tune Up") from Blue Haze is now also recognized as being a Vinson composition. Whether this was Miles just stealing the song outright or perhaps it was a question of recording session convenience because Davis had a publishing deal and Cleanhead didn't is purely conjecture, invariably brought up by Miles' apologists, unable to separate the genius in his music from the turmoil of his personality. Bill Evans definitely got screwed on the publishing rights to several songs on "Kind of Blue".

Vinson seemed okay with the way things worked out, and it's nice to see that he's now getting the appropriate composer's credit on recordings and reissues of the song by Davis and other artists.

-Eden (and presumably, the Vinson estate receives the occasional royalty check)
Click to expand...
Thanks, Eden. I'd forgotten the Blue Haze recording. Actually, I think there were a couple of different recordings of it about that time. I'll have to go back and check.
Click to expand...

I have a question about that. I wouldn't have thought that a 1954 Prestige recording as an early modal. I would think of it as the middle hard-bop era. I have many of the Miles Prestige recordings from this period, but I don't remember this one.

Not being a musician nor the student of music that you are, I was unaware that Miles was such a pernicious thief. I'm not shocked exactly, but I didn't understand the extent. I would have thought it would be pretty easy for Bill Evans to show that the compositions on Kind of Blue were his given their divergence from anything Miles did before or after.

Thanks for this discussion.
 
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