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Beaucastel Dinner (menu)
- Thread starter Peter Creasey
- Start date
robert ames
robert ames
hi mark--righto.
so rather than omnipresent, you might say that he casts a long shadow across the southern rhone.
so rather than omnipresent, you might say that he casts a long shadow across the southern rhone.
originally posted by robert ames:
hi mark--righto.
so rather than omnipresent, you might say that he casts a long shadow kn the southern rhone.
If you are correcting my usage, I was intentionally using hyperbole to make a point. No one and nothing is really everywhere.
robert ames
robert ames
texting back and forth like this it is not easy to tell when one is encountering hyperbole and when encountering words being used incorrectly. as we both know, the latter is not an uncommon occurrence even on this bored.
my point is not to argue.
but try telling a southern baptist or other follower of fundamentalist religion that god is not omnipresent.
my point is not to argue.
but try telling a southern baptist or other follower of fundamentalist religion that god is not omnipresent.
originally posted by robert ames:
texting back and forth like this it is not easy to tell when one is encountering hyperbole and when encountering words being used incorrectly. as we both know, the latter is not an uncommon occurrence even on this bored.
my point is not to argue.
but try telling a southern baptist or other follower of fundamentalist religion that god is not omnipresent.
sure nuff. I have no cause to be argumentative unless it is about high alcohol and oak.
Speaking of Cambie and to your original question, Mark, about good grenache based wines from the area, I used to like Bosquet de Papes from the late 90's quite a bit. Used to be very affordable and at least what I thought of as traditionally made at the time. I see they went to Cambie in the 2000's...anyone tried them in a while?
georg lauer
georg lauer
I would think that the less expensive wines from Reynaud/Rayas would be good candidates for Grenache dominated wines with freshness. Chateau des Tours Resèrve and Vaqueyras are also reasonably priced if one can find them.
originally posted by georg lauer:
I would think that the less expensive wines from Reynaud/Rayas would be good candidates for Grenache dominated wines with freshness. Chateau des Tours Resèrve and Vaqueyras are also reasonably priced if one can find them.
Well, Eric's Chat Fou is a very good option, as well, at a much lower price. The 2016 was particularly well balanced. Off topic, but sticking to the same variety, the grenache-based wines made by Ampeleia in Tuscany are lovely.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
The basic cuvee of Bosquets de Papes is still a nice wine. All the cuvees named things like my Grandfather's Grandmother's Song are to be avoided.
I very much second the suggestion of Chateau des Tours. But they are not massively dominated by Grenache. The AOC rules for Vacqueyras at least, don't allow that. They are decently priced ex-domaine, but not in the U.S. I can't speak to what prices Mark will see in Norway.
I very much second the suggestion of Chateau des Tours. But they are not massively dominated by Grenache. The AOC rules for Vacqueyras at least, don't allow that. They are decently priced ex-domaine, but not in the U.S. I can't speak to what prices Mark will see in Norway.
robert ames
robert ames
eric texier's vaison de la romaine is 100% grenache and quite affordable.
also for really beautiful grenache fixes there's always the wines of gramenon.
also for really beautiful grenache fixes there's always the wines of gramenon.
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by Peter Creasey:
Roger Sabon Olivets, Les Cailloux, Mont-Olivet Mt Papet, Font de Michelle, Deus-Ex Machina St Jean, Vieux Donjon, Rotem Mounir aouma Omnia, Texier VV, Vieux Telegraphe La Crau, etc., etc.
. . . Pete
Caillloux, Mt. Olivet, Clos St. Jean (and especially the special curves named here), and Vieux Donjon are all Cambie wines. Font Michelle definitely sees new oak. These wines have their fans but they are not what Mark was asking for. I have no experience with Clos Saouma, which is what I think Pete means by Rotem etc.Texier makes a great CdP and is also worth seeking out. I don't have enough experience with Roger Sabon to say one way or the other.
I was curious about Cambie, not really knowing much about him. He seems to be omnipresent in the Southern Rhone. Reading an interview, I noted that he favors full ripeness (or should I read surmaturité?). In any case, his own Les Halos de Jupiter Chateauneuf-du-Pape 2014 is >16.5% ABV.
On a slightly related note, I know that in California - at least in the past - winemakers needed to use selected yeasts to restart stuck fermentations, particularly in musts with very high Brix. I had asked a number of people whether they thought that it might be possible to select a yeast with a very poor conversion ratio for such musts, but they had no idea. Alas, the yeasts that get to the finish line (say up to 17% or so) are very efficient converters of sugar to alcohol. Perhaps Comrade Brézème could comment on this?
My impression from one chemistry prof/winemaker I knew was that the range of conversion ratios feasible for yeasts was fairly limited.
This is a bit of a red herring. Even if you get a less efficient yeast, you'll most likely end up with a vin doux naturel (i.e. Rasteau), which I don't think is what mark is looking for.
Mark Lipton
georg lauer
georg lauer
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
The basic cuvee of Bosquets de Papes is still a nice wine. All the cuvees named things like my Grandfather's Grandmother's Song are to be avoided.
I very much second the suggestion of Chateau des Tours. But they are not massively dominated by Grenache. The AOC rules for Vacqueyras at least, don't allow that. They are decently priced ex-domaine, but not in the U.S. I can't speak to what prices Mark will see in Norway.
AFAIK the Vacqueyras is almost pure Grenache. And the Reserve still 60% or so. Says at least my dealer.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
The Vacqueyras is 80% Grenache. High, but not almost pure in my book. I'm not sure what you mean by the Reserve. The Cote de Rhone is 65% Grenache. Now the Cote de Rhone white is 100% Grenache blanc. These figures are from the website, which has to be navigated a little since it also covers Rayas and Fonsalette.
We drank L’ Anglore Vejade ‘15 recently, a blend of Grenache and Mourvèdre from Lirac and Tavel that was ~12% abc iirc. Light ruby slightly opaque in color, fully natural style (low to 0? Sulfur) without any of the sometimes encountered flaws of natural wine. It made my heart sing.
I’d rather pay the $45 for this for a Grenache fix compared to most CnP, but I love Texier and Charvin’s versions.
I’d rather pay the $45 for this for a Grenache fix compared to most CnP, but I love Texier and Charvin’s versions.
Mark, I would second the suggestion of Chapelle St. Theodoric. I have been particularly impressed with the Pin, which I think is from a sandy vineyard in the Pignan area (?). Light hand and lightly colored wines that trade on aromatics. I've only had a few vintages, so I'm not an expert.
If you have access to older vintages of Eric's wines, the 2013 Chateauneuf is showing really well right now.
I find that Charvin, while very good, doesn't scratch my Rayas itch, but Gramenon Mémé comes close.
If you have access to older vintages of Eric's wines, the 2013 Chateauneuf is showing really well right now.
I find that Charvin, while very good, doesn't scratch my Rayas itch, but Gramenon Mémé comes close.
originally posted by VLM:
Mark, I would second the suggestion of Chapelle St. Theodoric. I have been particularly impressed with the Pin, which I think is from a sandy vineyard in the Pignan area (?). Light hand and lightly colored wines that trade on aromatics. I've only had a few vintages, so I'm not an expert.
If you have access to older vintages of Eric's wines, the 2013 Chateauneuf is showing really well right now.
I find that Charvin, while very good, doesn't scratch my Rayas itch, but Gramenon Mémé comes close.
Thanks much and thanks to everyone else who made helpful suggestions - I will try to find these. I don't think Eric's CnP red is available, only the white. Might well be in the future as his wines are well distributed here.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
Yes, le grand pin is cheek by jowl with pignan. I sometimes prefer la guigasse, which is a different vineyard, but I suppose if you are trying for a Rayas placeholder, le grand pin is the one.originally posted by VLM:
Mark, I would second the suggestion of Chapelle St. Theodoric. I have been particularly impressed with the Pin, which I think is from a sandy vineyard in the Pignan area (?). Light hand and lightly colored wines that trade on aromatics. I've only had a few vintages, so I'm not an expert.
If you have access to older vintages of Eric's wines, the 2013 Chateauneuf is showing really well right now.
I find that Charvin, while very good, doesn't scratch my Rayas itch, but Gramenon Mémé comes close.
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by VLM:
Mark, I would second the suggestion of Chapelle St. Theodoric. I have been particularly impressed with the Pin, which I think is from a sandy vineyard in the Pignan area (?). Light hand and lightly colored wines that trade on aromatics. I've only had a few vintages, so I'm not an expert.
If you have access to older vintages of Eric's wines, the 2013 Chateauneuf is showing really well right now.
I find that Charvin, while very good, doesn't scratch my Rayas itch, but Gramenon Mémé comes close.
Thanks much and thanks to everyone else who made helpful suggestions - I will try to find these. I don't think Eric's CnP red is available, only the white. Might well be in the future as his wines are well distributed here.
I just had a 2009 white last weekend that was fantastic (in Jim's impressions thread from 4-8-2019). He always claimed that Norway was a great market.
There are tons of non spoofed South Rhones out there, you just have to know where to look.
JLL's drinkrhone site is very helpful for dipping a toe. You can usually read between the lines about whether something is modern or traditional, and his vinification descriptions help a lot.
Jonathan is right on the money about avoiding the special cuvees, generally. The tradition cuvees are usually pretty pure, non manipulated wines raised in foudre or concrete tank. Thankfully a lot of folks have backed off the oak lately.
I will admit though I haven't totally kept up. It makes me really sad to think Vieux Donjon, Bosquet des Papes, etc. which are just so good now have enologists. Why they would think that's needed is beyond me.
JLL's drinkrhone site is very helpful for dipping a toe. You can usually read between the lines about whether something is modern or traditional, and his vinification descriptions help a lot.
Jonathan is right on the money about avoiding the special cuvees, generally. The tradition cuvees are usually pretty pure, non manipulated wines raised in foudre or concrete tank. Thankfully a lot of folks have backed off the oak lately.
I will admit though I haven't totally kept up. It makes me really sad to think Vieux Donjon, Bosquet des Papes, etc. which are just so good now have enologists. Why they would think that's needed is beyond me.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
I was at the first day of the big decouverte de rhone tasting, yesterday. It is sadly not my impression that people have backed off oak. It is very much a thing of special cuvees, which, in some up and coming areas is a shame because it ruins their best wines. It does seem to be true that the lower down in the hierarchy s the AOC, the more likely oak is to appear. Sort of like the old line from the Maltese Falcon, the cheaper the gunsel, the gaudier the patter.