TN: Cellar-ish Some More (May 17, 2019)

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
I took delivery of some Confuron-Cotetidot from there a few months ago, no issues with legitimacy or condition. Jim is 100% correct, anyone fretting about counterfeits in this segment of the market is in tinfoil-hat territory. Counterfeiters target either luxury brands or stuff they can sell in industrial volume. Nobody is faking Louis Boillot or Jerome Chezeaux. The amazing sale prices are (a bit) less amazing when you factor in unusually high sales tax and shipping costs, but like Jim it smells to me like a "need cash now!" sale so as tempted as I was to load up on some of the stuff there I'm not sure how comfy I'd be having them sit on a few cases till the fall.
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Shipping is about $5/bottle to the east coast; sales tax about 10%.

The articles Jeff linked in above report that counterfeiting is 'common' in the mass-production market segment; the writers don't appear to be tinfoil-hat guys. But I think you are singling out the segment between these wines and the Chanel-ized luxury brands, where I've seen no reliable reporting.

I wonder how hard it is to accurately counterfeit, e.g., Chandon de Brailles labels - I have magnums of the 2005 ile de Vergelesses with loose capsules, which I regard skeptically.

Jeff - any reporting on mid- to mid-upper level wine counterfeiting?
 
I bought Peter Lauer and Joseph Voillot wines, and a couple bottles of Fichet Meursault. So far, our personal anecdotes include two people who have actually taken delivery of their orders with no issues, and no anecdotes of people who haven't. Of course, the prices still seem too good to be true, and that may well mean the store is experiencing financial distress and may not be around in the fall when I would like to take delivery. I have confidence my credit card company will protect me in that event, so I am going to let it ride and see what happens. If that makes me a sucker, then so be it.
 
I'm under the impression credit card companies will only extend protection something like 90 days. I imagine this is an overly simplistic view. Can you help me fill in the gaps, Michael? I you order, say, today, and delivery is not forthcoming in, say, October, what is the recourse?

Thanks.
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
I'm under the impression credit card companies will only extend protection something like 90 days. I imagine this is an overly simplistic view. Can you help me fill in the gaps, Michael? I you order, say, today, and delivery is not forthcoming in, say, October, what is the recourse?

Thanks.
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The recourse is that I tell them I bought something from a retailer that could not be shipped over the summer due to shipping conditions, and that the retailer failed to deliver the product once it was possible to ship. I think in many cases, a credit card company will credit you for the payment, and then step into your shoes and attempt to get the money back from the retailer and conduct whatever other investigation is needed.

I'm not sure there is any magic to 90 days specifically, although I would think after some amount of time the credit card company doesn't want to continue to have the exposure. It just depends on what the credit card company's terms are in the cardholder agreement, as well as how much business you do on that credit card (and therefore how valuable you are as a customer). I bought the wine with an Amex card, and my understanding is that Amex is pretty good about these kinds of issues, and I have been a customer for a long time. My hope is that the wine will be delivered in the fall with no issues, but if it isn't, I suspect (but have no guarantees) that Amex will cover me.

Remember, we may have one data point that causes us to speculate that the company could be experiencing financial distress (a fire sale at prices likely below wholesale), but the credit card companies have much better (if still incomplete) data about the cash flows of retailers for which they process credit card transactions. They see how much money is coming in through their credit cards, they get paid a fee for those transactions, and they routinely deal with customer claims of non-delivery of goods or other fraud, condition, and delivery issues (in the general sense across retailers of all types, but hopefully not with this specific wine shop). They have more incentive, and more leverage, than any single retail customer has to figure out whether there are issues of fraud, insolvency, etc. with respect to a given retailer. I am taking some comfort from that, but of course I still have some risk.
 
I dunno, the whole thing that kicked off the paranoia was the Rudy connection...that is a pretty huge wild card. I would not have bought originally had I known about it.

Why this company would even maintain the biz name, etc given its past...is beyond me...just look at our chatter here...

I suspect Michael is probably right about the whole VISA coverage thing, but I have enough stress in my life to just avoid the whole thing at this point.
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
... anyone fretting about counterfeits in this segment of the market is in tinfoil-hat territory. ....
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There is an entire web-economy in China (and elsewhere, but they are the largest culprit) built on counterfeits. to think that wine is somehow "exempt" from this because it is wine you drink and cellar is to wear tinfoil. Caveat emptor.
 
originally posted by MarkS:
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
... anyone fretting about counterfeits in this segment of the market is in tinfoil-hat territory. ....
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There is an entire web-economy in China (and elsewhere, but they are the largest culprit) built on counterfeits. to think that wine is somehow "exempt" from this because it is wine you drink and cellar is to wear tinfoil. Caveat emptor.
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Of course you can find many counterfeit goods in China that you will not see here, most of them rather blatantly obvious like the famous DRC Montrachet, "Appellation Romanee-Conti Controlee." But even in China, none of them are in the category of the wines being talked about in this thread.

How many people here have, personally, encountered counterfeit wines? Were any of those counterfeits $45 bottles of Nuits-St-Georges?
 
Michael:

Thanks.

The 90-day period comes from my direct experience plus sporadic browsing of Premier-Cru chat. I'm skeptical how much leverage credit card companies have in cases where, e.g., bankruptcy is declared.

Fifty shades of gray here, to my eye. I think, like BJ, my not-so-singular tastes do not bend in this particular direction, and I will steer away from the pain.
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

[...]

Were any of those counterfeits $45 bottles of Nuits-St-Georges?
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This is a good question.

Related, how many winesters will catch counterfeit bottles at this level, with enough confidence and sway to kick off serious inquiries (supposing that the counterfeiters are not filling their bottles with Yellow-Tail)?
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
originally posted by BJ:
So...I cancelled the order, and called VISA to back that up. My take, yes they need a fast cash infusion, even to the extent the wine is under what is certainly well under wholesale. That sounds awfully unstable, and definitely a flier on delivery next fall, as Jim and Keith say.

I look at my initial response, and should have listened to my own advice.

That said - if I lived in LA, I'd be there tomorrow, and clean them out. I don't quite get how this sale has gone on this long actually. If I lived there I would have bought half the stock.
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There are a few items I'd roll the dice on, if it were late October. For me, Voillot and some Champagne. A chance to get a feel for what Marchand & Tawse is about.
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Marchand/Tawse is excellent, FWIW. Saratoga generally has good prices on them.
 
I also question whether or not wine enthusiasts here or elsewhere can look at problematic middle-range wines and confidently distinguish between a counterfeit wine and one that might have other issues e.g. heat damage, bad provenance, etc., etc.

. . . . Pete
 
If someone was determined to make a counterfeit of a wine I know in a way designed to be able to fool even people who know it, would I be able to tell the difference on taste alone? Doubtful. But keep in mind most fakes are busted through typography and packaging errors, not tasting. If you were REALLY determined to fake, say, a bottle of Gouges 1er cru by filling it with, say, village NSG, how much profit do you figure you'd end up with after printing up perfect copies of the labels, ordering custom green capsules, etc.? I reckon you'd need some serious start-up capital to produce things like this in anywhere near the quantities needed to break even, which is probably one of the reasons it NEVER HAPPENS. Also, it takes a particular kind of counterfeiter even to care whether the taste is convincing. Rudy was playing a long con. Others are surely satisfied by the fact that by the time you've opened the bottle, they've already got your money. I had a fake DRC once that tasted like someone had filled the bottle with the last vintage of a Santa Rita Hills pinot noir.
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
If someone was determined to make a counterfeit of a wine I know in a way designed to be able to fool even people who know it, would I be able to tell the difference on taste alone? Doubtful. But keep in mind most fakes are busted through typography and packaging errors, not tasting. If you were REALLY determined to fake, say, a bottle of Gouges 1er cru by filling it with, say, village NSG, how much profit do you figure you'd end up with after printing up perfect copies of the labels, ordering custom green capsules, etc.? I reckon you'd need some serious start-up capital to produce things like this in anywhere near the quantities needed to break even, [...]
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Right - would the rate of return from counterfeiting in this range, relative to the effort required, be worth it?

Like you, I wouldn't think so. But Jeff, and the other informed folks who tarry here, have surprised me in the past with facts contrary to my expectations. So I wonder if there's any reliable data.
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
I've heard Marchand & Tawse can be a little bit new-worldy. Not so?
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No, that's probably just coming from lazy people prejudiced by Pascal Marchand's name, since he's made some blockbuster style wines for Clos des Epeneaux and Domaine de la Vougeraie. But he has made many stunning non-blockbustery wines as well and he isn't even the winemaker at Marchand-Tawse - they're made by a guy named Mark Fincham. These are classic, elegant burgundies.
 
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
Taking a flyer on some Jean-Marc Pillot and a bottle of 2010 Dorbon Clos du Mayne. Not really worried.
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Speaking of Pillot, everybody should load up on the 2015 Clos St Jean rouge if you haven't already.
 
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
originally posted by MarkS:
originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
... anyone fretting about counterfeits in this segment of the market is in tinfoil-hat territory. ....
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How many people here have, personally, encountered counterfeit wines?
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I have. A couple of years ago I was shipped a bottle of 1994 Clape Cornas that clearly had a fake label. Fortunately I was able to return it and got my money back.
 
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