TN: Cellar-ish Some More (May 17, 2019)

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
Taking a flyer on some Jean-Marc Pillot and a bottle of 2010 Dorbon Clos du Mayne. Not really worried.

Speaking of Pillot, everybody should load up on the 2015 Clos St Jean rouge if you haven't already.

Épuisé.

 

[MarkS]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
Taking a flyer on some Jean-Marc Pillot and a bottle of 2010 Dorbon Clos du Mayne. Not really worried.

Speaking of Pillot, everybody should load up on the 2015 Clos St Jean rouge if you haven't already.

Épuisé.

Yeah, I think that boat has sailed...

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

originally posted by MarkS:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
... anyone fretting about counterfeits in this segment of the market is in tinfoil-hat territory. ....

How many people here have, personally, encountered counterfeit wines?

I have. A couple of years ago I was shipped a bottle of 1994 Clape Cornas that clearly had a fake label. Fortunately I was able to return it and got my money back.

Fascinating, I would have guessed Cornas was too niche-y for counterfeiters.

 

[Keith Levenberg]

You'd also figure anyone faking a Cornas would go with, say, a 1990 vintage tag instead of a 1994, but who can say without seeing the bottle.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
You'd also figure anyone faking a Cornas would go with, say, a 1990 vintage tag instead of a 1994, but who can say without seeing the bottle.

It doesn't make sense. I agree. The label looked like a color photocopy, the vintage collar strip was clearly fake and - oddly - everything was applied with what appeared to be rubber cement (the label was peeling off and you could see behind it). Plus I had Clape Cornas bottles from the 90s; they did not look like this one.

 

[Tristan Welles]

That's just bizarre. Nice fill though!

 

[MarkS]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
You'd also figure anyone faking a Cornas would go with, say, a 1990 vintage tag instead of a 1994, but who can say without seeing the bottle.

It doesn't make sense. I agree. The label looked like a color photocopy, the vintage collar strip was clearly fake and - oddly - everything was applied with what appeared to be rubber cement (the label was peeling off and you could see behind it). Plus I had Clape Cornas bottles from the 90s; they did not look like this one.

Label looks legit to me. I know Clape was using glued-on labels previous to that (don't know about the 94, but 80's and 1990 were glued, like many wines of the day)

 

[mark e]

originally posted by MarkS:

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
You'd also figure anyone faking a Cornas would go with, say, a 1990 vintage tag instead of a 1994, but who can say without seeing the bottle.

It doesn't make sense. I agree. The label looked like a color photocopy, the vintage collar strip was clearly fake and - oddly - everything was applied with what appeared to be rubber cement (the label was peeling off and you could see behind it). Plus I had Clape Cornas bottles from the 90s; they did not look like this one.

Label looks legit to me. I know Clape was using glued-on labels previous to that (don't know about the 94, but 80's and 1990 were glued, like many wines of the day)

Of course they were glued. But not with that sort of glue. And the paper was brand new.

 

[Keith Levenberg]

Looks perfectly legit to me too. There's no reason why the paper on a 1994 can't look brand new. If the glue was funky, possibly the prior owner tried to fix a loose label - but "label was peeling off and you could see behind it" sounds like a perfectly normal description of what often happens when a humid cellar causes a label to disattach. Vintage strip is consistent with what was used at the time. It has the right capsule, too. Certainly doesn't rise to the level of "clearly fake" as originally stated - it's in the realm of possibility, but seriously, fakery doesn't pass the Occam's razor test here. Not a wine anyone would ordinarily bother faking, certainly not to the point of commissioning an exact replica of the capsule but then falling down on the job and saying, "fuck it, let's just glue on the label with rubber cement."

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Looks perfectly legit to me too. There's no reason why the paper on a 1994 can't look brand new. If the glue was funky, possibly the prior owner tried to fix a loose label - but "label was peeling off and you could see behind it" sounds like a perfectly normal description of what often happens when a humid cellar causes a label to disattach. Vintage strip is consistent with what was used at the time. It has the right capsule, too. Certainly doesn't rise to the level of "clearly fake" as originally stated - it's in the realm of possibility, but seriously, fakery doesn't pass the Occam's razor test here. Not a wine anyone would ordinarily bother faking, certainly not to the point of commissioning an exact replica of the capsule but then falling down on the job and saying, "fuck it, let's just glue on the label with rubber cement."

Ok. You are entitled to your opinion. But the label was a bit fuzzy and clearly (at least to me) did not look printed. Look at the color in the field at center top with the grape cluster and the typeface of the "C" in Cornas. All the wines from the nineties I had looked like this:

 

[robert ames]

not to argue, but the bottle has a rare wine company strip. i would expect them to spot fakes.

 

[Jay Miller]

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

originally posted by MarkS:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
... anyone fretting about counterfeits in this segment of the market is in tinfoil-hat territory. ....

How many people here have, personally, encountered counterfeit wines?

I have. A couple of years ago I was shipped a bottle of 1994 Clape Cornas that clearly had a fake label. Fortunately I was able to return it and got my money back.

Fascinating, I would have guessed Cornas was too niche-y for counterfeiters.

Not since a Clape Cornas got 100 points from the WA

 

[Tristan Welles]

I am not competent to have an opinion on Clape Cornas, but as to the subject of glue, it is not sufficient to prove the bottle a counterfeit.

I have worked for several booze distributors and should any label come off, or should any packing come undone, it would have been quite normal for the label or box to be re-assembled with the ingredients to hand. This would certainly be more likely to be the case back in the mid-90s, before every consideration would have been given to provenance and bottle condition.

 

[Keith Levenberg]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Looks perfectly legit to me too. There's no reason why the paper on a 1994 can't look brand new. If the glue was funky, possibly the prior owner tried to fix a loose label - but "label was peeling off and you could see behind it" sounds like a perfectly normal description of what often happens when a humid cellar causes a label to disattach. Vintage strip is consistent with what was used at the time. It has the right capsule, too. Certainly doesn't rise to the level of "clearly fake" as originally stated - it's in the realm of possibility, but seriously, fakery doesn't pass the Occam's razor test here. Not a wine anyone would ordinarily bother faking, certainly not to the point of commissioning an exact replica of the capsule but then falling down on the job and saying, "fuck it, let's just glue on the label with rubber cement."

Ok. You are entitled to your opinion. But the label was a bit fuzzy and clearly (at least to me) did not look printed. Look at the color in the field at center top with the grape cluster and the typeface of the "C" in Cornas. All the wines from the nineties I had looked like this:

Google image search will reveal early to mid 90s bottles with packaging consistent with your 94

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
If someone was determined to make a counterfeit of a wine I know in a way designed to be able to fool even people who know it, would I be able to tell the difference on taste alone? Doubtful. But keep in mind most fakes are busted through typography and packaging errors, not tasting. If you were REALLY determined to fake, say, a bottle of Gouges 1er cru by filling it with, say, village NSG, how much profit do you figure you'd end up with after printing up perfect copies of the labels, ordering custom green capsules, etc.? I reckon you'd need some serious start-up capital to produce things like this in anywhere near the quantities needed to break even, which is probably one of the reasons it NEVER HAPPENS. Also, it takes a particular kind of counterfeiter even to care whether the taste is convincing. Rudy was playing a long con. Others are surely satisfied by the fact that by the time you've opened the bottle, they've already got your money. I had a fake DRC once that tasted like someone had filled the bottle with the last vintage of a Santa Rita Hills pinot noir.

It's actually pretty entertaining (at least to me) to imagine cost-conscious ways to fake more famous wines. How about this for an older Graves cru classe': take 1 bottle of reasonably ripe and non-vegetal Bordeaux Superieur wine with some age on it. Add a drop or two of vanilla and a drop or two of a smoky barbecue sauce to simulate more extended barrel aging. Add a tablespoon of tawny port for aging and richness, a tablespoon of dry oloroso for aging and complexity. Steep a bag of roiboos in the wine until just barely perceptible to give it that sweet herb-tobacco Graves note.

 

[MLipton]

All this talk of fakery reminds me in an oblique way of William Gaddis’s novel The Recognitions and the 3rd C theological tract that inspired it.

Mark Lipton

 

[robert ames]

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
If someone was determined to make a counterfeit of a wine I know in a way designed to be able to fool even people who know it, would I be able to tell the difference on taste alone? Doubtful. But keep in mind most fakes are busted through typography and packaging errors, not tasting. If you were REALLY determined to fake, say, a bottle of Gouges 1er cru by filling it with, say, village NSG, how much profit do you figure you'd end up with after printing up perfect copies of the labels, ordering custom green capsules, etc.? I reckon you'd need some serious start-up capital to produce things like this in anywhere near the quantities needed to break even, which is probably one of the reasons it NEVER HAPPENS. Also, it takes a particular kind of counterfeiter even to care whether the taste is convincing. Rudy was playing a long con. Others are surely satisfied by the fact that by the time you've opened the bottle, they've already got your money. I had a fake DRC once that tasted like someone had filled the bottle with the last vintage of a Santa Rita Hills pinot noir.

It's actually pretty entertaining (at least to me) to imagine cost-conscious ways to fake more famous wines. How about this for an older Graves cru classe': take 1 bottle of reasonably ripe and non-vegetal Bordeaux Superieur wine with some age on it. Add a drop or two of vanilla and a drop or two of a smoky barbecue sauce to simulate more extended barrel aging. Add a tablespoon of tawny port for aging and richness, a tablespoon of dry oloroso for aging and complexity. Steep a bag of roiboos in the wine until just barely perceptible to give it that sweet herb-tobacco Graves note.

you should try it!

 

[Tom Stephenson]

originally posted by robert ames:
not to argue, but the bottle has a rare wine company strip. i would expect them to spot fakes.

Tom from The Rare Wine Co. here.
Thanks for the comment Robert. As you noted, we take provenance and authenticity quite seriously. In the interest of full transparency, below is a copy of the email (and high res. photos, apologies in advance for their size) I sent to Mark on February 27th, 2015, a few days after his purchase of the single bottle pictured above, which we ultimately credited in full.

====COPY OF FEB 27, 2015 EMAIL===

Dear Mark,

Thanks for your note.

I understand that you have concerns about the provenance -- or maybe even the authenticity -- of the bottle of 1994 Clape that you received from us. I also understand that you're a member of the wine trade, and have experience with the wine, so I've provided detailed notes, along with the attached high resolution pictures, perfect for close-up zooming, shot in our warehouse today.

We take great care and great pride in our sourcing and our standards. I'd like to re-iterate my offer (via Jeff, yesterday) that after reading the below. If you remain uncomfortable with the bottle, we ask that you permit us to refund your money and have the unopened bottle shipped back to us (at our expense, of course) so that someone else can enjoy the wine.

1) Label Change
There was a label change chez Clape around the 1994 vintage, and there's a high likelihood that the switched labels in the middle of bottling. We own stock with both labels. I'm not sure if your concern is around the "new" label or the "old" labels, but i can vouch for the authenticity of each on the 1994 bottling, which match perfectly the surrounding vintages.

2) Fill levels
Bottle fills have always been irregular at Clape (this has also been our experience with other old-school Cornas winemakers like Verset and Michel), where underfills and overfills are common. Having visited the Domaine at bottling, I can tell you that it is a family operation, where machines play only a small role. However, even so, you'll note the fill levels of wines with both 1994s labels are quite close to each other and appropriate for 20-year-old perfectly stored wines.

3) Labeling well after bottling
Even if Clape hadn't begun to use the new label in 1994, given that Cornas' worldwide appeal is a recent phenomenon, it was regular practice for a Domaine to hold back a good deal of stock (especially in vintages like 1994) and to not label them until the time of release from the Domaine. Beyond Clape, we have had countless examples of wines from Robert Michel, for example, that look "good as new" due to recent labeling at the Domaine.

4) Ex-Cellars Stock
On the 1994s with "old" label, we understand that our supplier (who we've bought 20+ vintages of Clape from) purchased the stock directly from the Domaine on release and put the wines directly into temperature controlled storage. The bottles arrived in their original cardboard case, which matches other cases that we have from the Domaine. All bottles are pristine.

5) Color
I've examined each of the bottles in the attached pictures for color, and their colors are nearly identical.

Our storage partner in Europe uses a temperature controlled facility and we record temperature in the refrigerated containers that we use to move wine. So, heat damage is very unlikely.

6) Authenticity
If someone were to go to the trouble of faking a bottle of Clape Cornas any were going to fake a bottle of old(ish) Clape, they likely wouldn't choose 1994, whose value is at best 1/3 of nearby vintages like 1988, 1990 and 1991. Further, we've been holding the old-label stock for 5 years, and at that time, the wholesale value of the wine was far closer to its (lower) 2005 value, pre-Cornas "boom."

We are 100% confident in the bottles, based on examination, knowledge of the provenance and 25 years of experience handling, drinking and selling Clape Cornas back to the 1971 vintage. This includes having had two bottles of the 1994 from the same stock featured in one of the most extensive Clape tastings ever, at Bar Boulud in October 2013. The bottles of '94 (like yours) were fully vetted not only by New York's most knowledgeable sommelier on the Northern Rhone, but by 30 experienced tasters, including our owner, Mannie Berk, and three nationally known journalists. There was not a raised eyebrow in the room. Nor should there have been.

Please let me know how you'd like us to proceed. Would you like us to issue you a refund and a call tag at this time?

Best Regards,

Tom

==
Tom Stephenson
Managing Director - Retail
The Rare Wine Co.

Images that were attached

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Tom Stephenson:

originally posted by robert ames:
not to argue, but the bottle has a rare wine company strip. i would expect them to spot fakes.

Tom from The Rare Wine Co. here.
Thanks for the comment Robert. As you noted, we take provenance and authenticity quite seriously. In the interest of full transparency, below is a copy of the email (and high res. photos, apologies in advance for their size) I sent to Mark on February 27th, 2015, a few days after his purchase of the single bottle pictured above, which we ultimately credited in full.

====COPY OF FEB 27, 2015 EMAIL===

Dear Mark,

Thanks for your note.

I understand that you have concerns about the provenance -- or maybe even the authenticity -- of the bottle of 1994 Clape that you received from us. I also understand that you're a member of the wine trade, and have experience with the wine, so I've provided detailed notes, along with the attached high resolution pictures, perfect for close-up zooming, shot in our warehouse today.

We take great care and great pride in our sourcing and our standards. I'd like to re-iterate my offer (via Jeff, yesterday) that after reading the below. If you remain uncomfortable with the bottle, we ask that you permit us to refund your money and have the unopened bottle shipped back to us (at our expense, of course) so that someone else can enjoy the wine.

1) Label Change
There was a label change chez Clape around the 1994 vintage, and there's a high likelihood that the switched labels in the middle of bottling. We own stock with both labels. I'm not sure if your concern is around the "new" label or the "old" labels, but i can vouch for the authenticity of each on the 1994 bottling, which match perfectly the surrounding vintages.

2) Fill levels
Bottle fills have always been irregular at Clape (this has also been our experience with other old-school Cornas winemakers like Verset and Michel), where underfills and overfills are common. Having visited the Domaine at bottling, I can tell you that it is a family operation, where machines play only a small role. However, even so, you'll note the fill levels of wines with both 1994s labels are quite close to each other and appropriate for 20-year-old perfectly stored wines.

3) Labeling well after bottling
Even if Clape hadn't begun to use the new label in 1994, given that Cornas' worldwide appeal is a recent phenomenon, it was regular practice for a Domaine to hold back a good deal of stock (especially in vintages like 1994) and to not label them until the time of release from the Domaine. Beyond Clape, we have had countless examples of wines from Robert Michel, for example, that look "good as new" due to recent labeling at the Domaine.

4) Ex-Cellars Stock
On the 1994s with "old" label, we understand that our supplier (who we've bought 20+ vintages of Clape from) purchased the stock directly from the Domaine on release and put the wines directly into temperature controlled storage. The bottles arrived in their original cardboard case, which matches other cases that we have from the Domaine. All bottles are pristine.

5) Color
I've examined each of the bottles in the attached pictures for color, and their colors are nearly identical.

Our storage partner in Europe uses a temperature controlled facility and we record temperature in the refrigerated containers that we use to move wine. So, heat damage is very unlikely.

6) Authenticity
If someone were to go to the trouble of faking a bottle of Clape Cornas any were going to fake a bottle of old(ish) Clape, they likely wouldn't choose 1994, whose value is at best 1/3 of nearby vintages like 1988, 1990 and 1991. Further, we've been holding the old-label stock for 5 years, and at that time, the wholesale value of the wine was far closer to its (lower) 2005 value, pre-Cornas "boom."

We are 100% confident in the bottles, based on examination, knowledge of the provenance and 25 years of experience handling, drinking and selling Clape Cornas back to the 1971 vintage. This includes having had two bottles of the 1994 from the same stock featured in one of the most extensive Clape tastings ever, at Bar Boulud in October 2013. The bottles of '94 (like yours) were fully vetted not only by New York's most knowledgeable sommelier on the Northern Rhone, but by 30 experienced tasters, including our owner, Mannie Berk, and three nationally known journalists. There was not a raised eyebrow in the room. Nor should there have been.

Please let me know how you'd like us to proceed. Would you like us to issue you a refund and a call tag at this time?

Best Regards,

Tom

==
Tom Stephenson
Managing Director - Retail
The Rare Wine Co.

We shall, I guess, be eternally in disagreement.

 

[MarkS]

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
It's actually pretty entertaining (at least to me) to imagine cost-conscious ways to fake more famous wines. How about this for an older Graves cru classe': take 1 bottle of reasonably ripe and non-vegetal Bordeaux Superieur wine with some age on it. Add a drop or two of vanilla and a drop or two of a smoky barbecue sauce to simulate more extended barrel aging. Add a tablespoon of tawny port for aging and richness, a tablespoon of dry oloroso for aging and complexity. Steep a bag of roiboos in the wine until just barely perceptible to give it that sweet herb-tobacco Graves note.

You frighten me.