The Tasting Note is Dead

[robert ames]

as someone ITB (restaruant wine buyer) that's 4 hours from the nearest city, i find going to trade tastings a slog and rarely go. i would be at sea without burghound, vinous, jll, lars carlberg, wine doctor, wine advocate, wine terroirs dot com, etc.

while tasting notes that parse flavours to the 'satsuma orange' level seem silly to me, to find what i am looking for AND to keep from buying crap i rely on all the tasting notes i can get.

you learn who likes what you like, and act accordingly. back when parker ruled the bordeaux world, i would only consider a bordeaux if he called it thin and weedy, because that is how he found traditional non-spoofed bordeaux.

for what its worth, my favourite reviewer is jll. instead of getting lost in the minutia of describing flavours, he gives a solid sense of what the wine is like and its place in the world.

 

[Peter Creasey]

Robert, well said!

. . . . Pete

 

[MarkS]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
That may be, but they move product.

Yes, of course, but they aren't that relevant to this debate.

The marketplace is a very efficient tool at conveying the barest of information to sell the mostest, so I would say The Invisible Hand is Very relevant to the selling of product.

 

[MarkS]

originally posted by robert ames:
... 4 hours from the nearest city,...

Yukon? Because I don't think there is anywhere in the lower 48 that is more than 4 hours from a city, but perhaps you define 'city' differently from the government?

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by MLipton:
The Elephant in the RoomImplicit in this critique is the idea that the consumer has the resources to explore wine on their own, enabling them to establish their own tastes. However, for many Americans wine is a special occasion beverage and they may have to purchase a bottle with little to no experience with wine. These people are not going to be able to draw upon their own experiences to choose a wine; they must perforce rely on someone else's opinion, be that a retailer's, Eric Asimov's or RMP's.

Mark Lipton

Agree with your first point, and critics play a role as a filter, narrowing the field for many people. But reading wine critics and ratings is positively correlated with wine consumption and spending, i.e. the people paying most attention to wine critics are the ones most into wine.

Consumers who aren't particularly interested or involved in wine, or treat it as a special occasion beverage, are more likely to rely on staff, friends/relatives, shelf cues, packaging or most of all brands they feel are "safe" choices because they have heard frequently and positively about them. They could use the help, but that brings us back to the issue of whether their palate aligns with the critic's.

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
That may be, but they move product.

Yes, of course, but they aren't that relevant to this debate.

Why not? This whole tangent was on account of the claim, "I can assure you that nothing carries as much weight as a 90+ rating from the Spec with consumers here"

To some extent, this belief among the trade is self-fulfilling. Some interesting experiments have indicated that it's the 90+ rather than the source that is impactful. Plus the contrast between a wine with a rating and a similar adjacent one without

 

[robert ames]

originally posted by MarkS:

originally posted by robert ames:
... 4 hours from the nearest city,...

Yukon? Because I don't think there is anywhere in the lower 48 that is more than 4 hours from a city, but perhaps you define 'city' differently from the government?

walla walla.

4 hours to seattle, 4 hours to portland, 5 hours to boise. the nearest cities big enough to have trade tastings with disorderly wines, or for that matter, trade tastings of any sort.

mind you i am not complaining. we will never be a bedroom community the way napa has.

 

[Jay Miller]

There are plenty of wines that I was introduced to by John's notes in VFTC, notably Magdelaine. And I rely on MFW when deciding how to allocate my limited budget for new release Germans.

BTW Robert - I may be in Walla Walla for a short visit next year.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by MarkS:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
That may be, but they move product.

Yes, of course, but they aren't that relevant to this debate.

The marketplace is a very efficient tool at conveying the barest of information to sell the mostest, so I would say The Invisible Hand is Very relevant to the selling of product.

But the debate between Mark and me isn't about all the ways a product is sold to any aspect of the market. It was specifically about whether the consumer who bought wine only a few times a year for special occasions was influenced by wine reviews (again, reviews, not shelf talkers). I specifically allowed in my first response to Mark L. that occasional consumers were sometimes or frequently influenced by shelf talkers.

 

[robert ames]

originally posted by Jay Miller:
There are plenty of wines that I was introduced to by John's notes in VFTC, notably Magdelaine. And I rely on MFW when deciding how to allocate my limited budget for new release Germans.

BTW Robert - I may be in Walla Walla for a short visit next year.

give me a heads up if that pans out.

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by MarkS:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
That may be, but they move product.

Yes, of course, but they aren't that relevant to this debate.

The marketplace is a very efficient tool at conveying the barest of information to sell the mostest, so I would say The Invisible Hand is Very relevant to the selling of product.

But the debate between Mark and me isn't about all the ways a product is sold to any aspect of the market. It was specifically about whether the consumer who bought wine only a few times a year for special occasions was influenced by wine reviews (again, reviews, not shelf talkers). I specifically allowed in my first response to Mark L. that occasional consumers were sometimes or frequently influenced by shelf talkers.

Fair enough, Jonathan. I was speaking more about the influence of the Spec via shelf talkers. I agree with you that few if any casual consumers of wine will have copies of the Spec or other wine mags on their coffee tables, yet those same publications do cast a large shadow over wine sales in this and other regions.

I think we can all agree that spending 10 minutes chatting to David Lillie or Jamie Wolff would be far more productive than reading another fruit salad description of a wine alongside a numerical rating, yet retailers of their ilk are a rarity in my experience.

Mark Lipton

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by MarkS:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
That may be, but they move product.

Yes, of course, but they aren't that relevant to this debate.

The marketplace is a very efficient tool at conveying the barest of information to sell the mostest, so I would say The Invisible Hand is Very relevant to the selling of product.

But the debate between Mark and me isn't about all the ways a product is sold to any aspect of the market. It was specifically about whether the consumer who bought wine only a few times a year for special occasions was influenced by wine reviews (again, reviews, not shelf talkers). I specifically allowed in my first response to Mark L. that occasional consumers were sometimes or frequently influenced by shelf talkers.

Fair enough, Jonathan. I was speaking more about the influence of the Spec via shelf talkers. I agree with you that few if any casual consumers of wine will have copies of the Spec or other wine mags on their coffee tables, yet those same publications do cast a large shadow over wine sales in this and other regions.

I think we can all agree that spending 10 minutes chatting to David Lillie or Jamie Wolff would be far more productive than reading another fruit salad description of a wine alongside a numerical rating, yet retailers of their ilk are a rarity in my experience.

Mark Lipton

And, much as I respect their advice, I think it's effectiveness comes from their customers knowing them and them knowing their customers. I'm sure they can help the person who stops in three times a year and asks for a nice red for a birthday dinner, but only up to a point. If they are lurking here, though, I'll take a better response from one of them.

 

[MarkS]

originally posted by robert ames:

originally posted by MarkS:

originally posted by robert ames:
... 4 hours from the nearest city,...

Yukon? Because I don't think there is anywhere in the lower 48 that is more than 4 hours from a city, but perhaps you define 'city' differently from the government?

walla walla.

4 hours to seattle, 4 hours to portland, 5 hours to boise. the nearest cities big enough to have trade tastings with disorderly wines, or for that matter, trade tastings of any sort.

mind you i am not complaining. we will never be a bedroom community the way napa has.

Didn't realize it was so isolated. Nothing happening in Bend I take it? Lot of money there to buy fancy wines...

 

[MarkS]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by MarkS:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
That may be, but they move product.

Yes, of course, but they aren't that relevant to this debate.

The marketplace is a very efficient tool at conveying the barest of information to sell the mostest, so I would say The Invisible Hand is Very relevant to the selling of product.

But the debate between Mark and me isn't about all the ways a product is sold to any aspect of the market. It was specifically about whether the consumer who bought wine only a few times a year for special occasions was influenced by wine reviews (again, reviews, not shelf talkers). I specifically allowed in my first response to Mark L. that occasional consumers were sometimes or frequently influenced by shelf talkers.

Media aside, a shelf talker *is* a review, sometimes condensed, but almost always from a periodical of some sort. It's as if you read a publication on your news feed or from a newspaper, it is still "news". I wouldn't get hung up on the delivery method.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by MarkS:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by MarkS:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
That may be, but they move product.

Yes, of course, but they aren't that relevant to this debate.

The marketplace is a very efficient tool at conveying the barest of information to sell the mostest, so I would say The Invisible Hand is Very relevant to the selling of product.

But the debate between Mark and me isn't about all the ways a product is sold to any aspect of the market. It was specifically about whether the consumer who bought wine only a few times a year for special occasions was influenced by wine reviews (again, reviews, not shelf talkers). I specifically allowed in my first response to Mark L. that occasional consumers were sometimes or frequently influenced by shelf talkers.

Media aside, a shelf talker *is* a review, sometimes condensed, but almost always from a periodical of some sort. It's as if you read a publication on your news feed or from a newspaper, it is still "news". I wouldn't get hung up on the delivery method.

Go back and read my response to Keith where I discuss why I think shelf talkers are to reviews as military music is to music. He didn't contest this. I take it you do. But you might at least contest what I said.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

So, what do we think Asimov will write about next week? Profound emotional and psychological support for all those thirsty twice-a-year but also deer-in-the-headlights types?

 

[robert ames]

originally posted by MarkS:

originally posted by robert ames:

originally posted by MarkS:

originally posted by robert ames:
... 4 hours from the nearest city,...

Yukon? Because I don't think there is anywhere in the lower 48 that is more than 4 hours from a city, but perhaps you define 'city' differently from the government?

walla walla.

4 hours to seattle, 4 hours to portland, 5 hours to boise. the nearest cities big enough to have trade tastings with disorderly wines, or for that matter, trade tastings of any sort.

mind you i am not complaining. we will never be a bedroom community the way napa has.

Didn't realize it was so isolated. Nothing happening in Bend I take it? Lot of money there to buy fancy wines...

not sure i understand your bend inquiry. are you thinking that bend is a place where there would be trade tastings? there's no distributors located there and none of the distributors i work with hold trade tastings in bend.

and even if there were trade tastings in bend, bend is 4 hours from walla walla.

 

[Keith Levenberg]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Go back and read my response to Keith where I discuss why I think shelf talkers are to reviews as military music is to music. He didn't contest this. I take it you do. But you might at least contest what I said.

Most shelf talkers I've seen are literally scissored-and-taped copies of the mag review, or in the Spectator's case pre-printed shelf talkers supplied by the mag.. but this is a boring tangent of a tangent..

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

I admit to not reading either shelf talkers or the Spec with great care. Most seem to be phrases or maybe one sentence and hardly a complete note. I admit that I didn't know they supplied pre-printed shelf talkers, though, now that you mention it, I should have realized that's what they were. I would contend that, in intention, form and matter they are a completely different genre from reviews--even if they look exactly like the review they are taken from--and shouldn't be treated as such. But that would get us to the problem of what Danto calls indiscernibles, and, indeed, no one wants to go there,

 

[maureen]

originally posted by robert ames:


for what its worth, my favourite reviewer is jll.

Who?