The Game of Patience

I

Ian Fitzsimmons

Ian Fitzsimmons
Some graceful agers hauled up from the seventh level of my crawl space.

1999 Bernard Burgaud Côte-Rôtie

Good bottle. Tannins are resolved, and a soupy wine of balance and moderate heft is revealed. Much the best showing so far of my six, but, I think, drink up over the next few years. The rule of 20 supersedes the rule of 14.

2002 Fritz Haag Brauneberger Juffer Riesling Auslese

This wine is aging effortlessly, with miles and miles to go before a hint of fatigue shows. All around good in the mold of top-flight MSR SL; elegance is the watchword. For me, now, still too sweet for much pleasure, except served cold, as an aperitif, or with Stilton-like cheeses, with which it pairs handsomely.

A chacun ...

2002 Domaine Rollin Père et Fils Pernand-Vergelesses 1er Cru Ile des Vergelesses

Excellent. Lovely now but might still become more refined over the next few years. Limpid, light, medium- bodied, red Bburgundy, still with a modest tannic crust, and a dollop of Pernand rusticity at its heart. This bottle was really, really good.

2004 Domaine Ponsot Morey St. Denis 1er Cru Clos des Monts Luisants Vieilles Vignes

From magnum, this is a startlingly good and delicious wine. The texture is placid glass, with a bit of lanolin plushness; the flavor profile is tangy and swampy, tending towards GC Chablis; the structure is firm acid, a broad backbone at first, becoming more refined with slow oxidation.

I liked my last bottle of this wine well enough, but this was a big surprise; it's a borderline great wine (in the context of my drinking - I don't get at much Montrachet). Distinctive, delightful texturally, delicious, with engaging depth and complexity. Is aged Aligoté from other good producers like this? Bought from the now infamous PC, before the fall, for something like $40.

2005 Jean-Claude Bessin Chablis Grand Cru Valmur

This is excellent GC Chablis, at the level I drink at (i.e., excluding Ravenau and Dauvissat). Terrific swampy flavor; balanced and defining acid frame, a hint of elegance (which I'm learning to associate with Valmur), good depth and complexity. Engages the attention. Improved over three days, last glass the best; could continue to hold for another couple of years, I suppose.

There really is nothing like a good Chablis buzz. I need to quit buying daily quaffers and stock a few more like this with the savings.
 
I'd really like to know if well-grown, well-raised Aligoté normally tastes like the Ponsot. I'm drinking the last mouthful as I write, and it just kicks ass. I'll start buying de Villaine by the case if it develops along this trajectory.
 
The 2005 Burgundies generally speaking are drinking well right now.

It's always nice to read favorable reviews of 2004 Burgundies. The broad slam against the vintage is often disproved with notes like yours...although perhaps Aligote escapes the pervasive negative commentary on 2004s.

. . . . Pete
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
I'd really like to know if well-grown, well-raised Aligoté normally tastes like the Ponsot. I'm drinking the last mouthful as I write, and it just kicks ass. I'll start buying de Villaine by the case if it develops along this trajectory.
Click to expand...

Ok, I'll chime in. The difference in vine age between Ponsot and de Villaine is significant. With the Ponsot you are talking about vines around 100 years old. With the de Villaine, you are not. That said, the farming at Ponsot maybe isn't the ideal in the Platonic sense. It is also worth noting, and really this is something to think about, that Morey-Saint-Denis and Bouzeron are really not close to each other. If you were talking about Chardonnay, I don't think you would be asking if this Rully you were thinking about was going to be the same with some age as this Nuits-Saint-Georges Blanc or Vougeot Blanc you've had. The location also affects the vine material in the selection, which was often by general area.

All that said, I've had de Villaine Aligoté back into the 1980s, and those wines aged well. Very well. But there are some differences in how they were made in that era and today. Some would say they've changed for the better, I'm sure. The vineyard area concerned is also different for de Villaine today, in terms of size.

If you wanted something more akin to the Ponsot, I would point you to the old vine Aligote planted around Dijon, of which there are still relatively a lot of parcels. So you see someone like Sylvain Pataille making several different Aligote from parcels around 100 years old or more. The winemaking at Pataille is of course different than at Ponsot. Some might say better.
 
up through 2004 ponsot's monts luisants was planted in both chardonnay and aligote. that year chardonnay was all torn out and planted with aligote--this from remington norman and charles taylor's book, 'the great domaines of burgundy".
 
Ian, forgive my possible naïveté, but what do you mean precisely when you describe the Burgaud as “soupy?” From context, it doesn’t appear to be a damning quality in your eyes, but I have a hard time thinking of a positive spin on the term in a vinous context.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by MLipton:
Ian, forgive my possible naïveté, but what do you mean precisely when you describe the Burgaud as “soupy?” From context, it doesn’t appear to be a damning quality in your eyes, but I have a hard time thinking of a positive spin on the term in a vinous context.

Mark Lipton
Click to expand...

I'm trying to describe a textural quality of slightly more density or viscosity than usual, without the accompanying sense of either lusciousness or minerality you sometimes get with a wine that's developing past a shut-down phase, towards maturity. It makes me think of a simple vegetable soup without the actual chunks, there's a sense of more-than-the usual amount of solute in the liquid.

Doesn't sound hugely appetizing, but has no effect on flavor or aroma; just an interesting quality. In any event, it's more neutral than 'cat piss' or 'ass.'
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
I'd really like to know if well-grown, well-raised Aligoté normally tastes like the Ponsot. I'm drinking the last mouthful as I write, and it just kicks ass. I'll start buying de Villaine by the case if it develops along this trajectory.
Click to expand...

Ok, I'll chime in. The difference in vine age between Ponsot and de Villaine is significant. With the Ponsot you are talking about vines around 100 years old. With the de Villaine, you are not. That said, the farming at Ponsot maybe isn't the ideal in the Platonic sense. It is also worth noting, and really this is something to think about, that Morey-Saint-Denis and Bouzeron are really not close to each other. If you were talking about Chardonnay, I don't think you would be asking if this Rully you were thinking about was going to be the same with some age as this Nuits-Saint-Georges Blanc or Vougeot Blanc you've had. The location also affects the vine material in the selection, which was often by general area.

All that said, I've had de Villaine Aligoté back into the 1980s, and those wines aged well. Very well. But there are some differences in how they were made in that era and today. Some would say they've changed for the better, I'm sure. The vineyard area concerned is also different for de Villaine today, in terms of size.

If you wanted something more akin to the Ponsot, I would point you to the old vine Aligote planted around Dijon, of which there are still relatively a lot of parcels. So you see someone like Sylvain Pataille making several different Aligote from parcels around 100 years old or more. The winemaking at Pataille is of course different than at Ponsot. Some might say better.
Click to expand...

These are excellent points, unsurprisingly. I've habitually thought of Aligoté-based wines as generic varietals, to the exclusion of other variables. The reminder to consider (at least) vigneron, vineyard, and vine age is apt. I see a little Pataille around in Wine Searcher and will look into it.

Robert is correct: through 2004, the vineyard variety mix was 20:80, Chardonnay: Aligoté, per Ponsot's old, on-line fiches. I have a faint memory of a blurb on his site saying that Aligoté was considered the superior variety in times past, but couldn't swear to it.
 
Drat! I don't seem to have any 2002 Rollin. For some inexplicable reason I skip from 1999 to 2006.

I know I used to own a bunch of 2001 but I must have opened them.

Glad to read about everything showing so well.
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:

These are excellent points, unsurprisingly. I've habitually thought of Aligoté-based wines as generic varietals, to the exclusion of other variables. The reminder to consider (at least) vigneron, vineyard, and vine age is apt.
Click to expand...

Aligoté isn't one thing, but broadly speaking, two things. By which I mean there is Aligoté Doré and there is Aligoté Vert. Aligoté Doré is pre-clonal. Aligoté Vert is a clonal selection. When vines are 100 years old, they are by definition pre-clonal, because clones didn't exist back then. There are all kinds of differences between Aligoté Doré and Aligoté Vert, in terms of things like vigor, the way the berries look, the size of the berries, etc. But on the bottle label, both of these are labelled as Aligoté, however different the results may be. This is part of why it is important to consider vine material when you are looking at Aligoté. It is, broadly speaking, two different things that are labelled the same way.

Lafarge, de Villaine, Pataille, and (I believe) Ponsot: that is Aligoté Doré

Some producers blend both Doré and Vert. That's what they do at Domaine Pierre Morey, for example.

It tends to play out in more ways than just the grape itself. It has become common for Doré producers to barrel ferment the wine, and for it to go through malo. Vert producers might be more apt to ferment it in steel, and to block malo.

I read that Ponsot blocked the malo. So of course it doesn't have to be one way or the other.

But it is a big difference, between Doré and Vert.

This is aside from the regional differences in material. They have started collecting Aligoté material from different parts of Burgundy for the purpose of preserving the diversity. I don't know the exact amount of material they have collected, but it is not small.

Because Aligoté typically does not have the place name on the bottle label (Bouzeron and the MSD of Ponsot being the exceptions), the tendency is to think of it as a varietal, but that is problematic. Just for starters because of the fundamental difference between Doré and Vert.
 
originally posted by Jay Miller:
Drat! I don't seem to have any 2002 Rollin. For some inexplicable reason I skip from 1999 to 2006.

I know I used to own a bunch of 2001 but I must have opened them.

Glad to read about everything showing so well.
Click to expand...

I bought this bottle for a song, from the same auctioneer you picked up your 2002 Pavelot Dominode from, in Chicago, if memory serves, ten or so years ago. I also bought quite a lot of Bourgognes from Lafarge, Mugneret, and Bachelet for, like, $10-12 a bottle. A bargain at the time, but it's these purchases the pushed me off the straight and narrow path of prudent wine acquisition, down the slippery slope of Burgundy love, which has cost me dearly since.

I like older wines and feel like my cellar, such as it is, is just starting to come into its own. Like planting a garden, in which the flowers take a decade to start blooming. But I wax too lyric, I fear.

Anyway, thanks for the tip on the Chicago deals, back in the way back.
 
Mikulski has old Aligote vines, planted in 1929 and 1948, in Meursault. I don’t have experience with it aged, but the 2016 I had a few months ago struck me as begging for extended cellar time. Levi, I’m guessing those are pre-clonal although his grandfather was Joseph Boillot, who I just found out was a viticulturalist, so it would be interesting to know if the older vines were massal selection and the “younger” a clonal selection.

I’ve always been enamored with Goisot’s Aligote. Don’t know the vine source(s) but my experiment in aging the 1996 for twenty years turned out well. Delicious. No premox. Best $6.99 I ever spent on a bottle. Now about triple that.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
I'd really like to know if well-grown, well-raised Aligoté normally tastes like the Ponsot. I'm drinking the last mouthful as I write, and it just kicks ass. I'll start buying de Villaine by the case if it develops along this trajectory.
Click to expand...

Ok, I'll chime in. The difference in vine age between Ponsot and de Villaine is significant. With the Ponsot you are talking about vines around 100 years old. With the de Villaine, you are not. That said, the farming at Ponsot maybe isn't the ideal in the Platonic sense. It is also worth noting, and really this is something to think about, that Morey-Saint-Denis and Bouzeron are really not close to each other. If you were talking about Chardonnay, I don't think you would be asking if this Rully you were thinking about was going to be the same with some age as this Nuits-Saint-Georges Blanc or Vougeot Blanc you've had. The location also affects the vine material in the selection, which was often by general area.

All that said, I've had de Villaine Aligoté back into the 1980s, and those wines aged well. Very well. But there are some differences in how they were made in that era and today. Some would say they've changed for the better, I'm sure. The vineyard area concerned is also different for de Villaine today, in terms of size.

If you wanted something more akin to the Ponsot, I would point you to the old vine Aligote planted around Dijon, of which there are still relatively a lot of parcels. So you see someone like Sylvain Pataille making several different Aligote from parcels around 100 years old or more. The winemaking at Pataille is of course different than at Ponsot. Some might say better.
Click to expand...

Something in the back of my memory from tasting the Ponsot with Danny Haas back in the mid-90s was that there was some sort of weird mutant pinot noir (is that pinot beurot?) or something. Does that sound right? It's hard to believe how long ago some of this stuff was.
 
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
I'd really like to know if well-grown, well-raised Aligoté normally tastes like the Ponsot. I'm drinking the last mouthful as I write, and it just kicks ass. I'll start buying de Villaine by the case if it develops along this trajectory.
Click to expand...

Ok, I'll chime in. The difference in vine age between Ponsot and de Villaine is significant. With the Ponsot you are talking about vines around 100 years old. With the de Villaine, you are not. That said, the farming at Ponsot maybe isn't the ideal in the Platonic sense. It is also worth noting, and really this is something to think about, that Morey-Saint-Denis and Bouzeron are really not close to each other. If you were talking about Chardonnay, I don't think you would be asking if this Rully you were thinking about was going to be the same with some age as this Nuits-Saint-Georges Blanc or Vougeot Blanc you've had. The location also affects the vine material in the selection, which was often by general area.

All that said, I've had de Villaine Aligoté back into the 1980s, and those wines aged well. Very well. But there are some differences in how they were made in that era and today. Some would say they've changed for the better, I'm sure. The vineyard area concerned is also different for de Villaine today, in terms of size.

If you wanted something more akin to the Ponsot, I would point you to the old vine Aligote planted around Dijon, of which there are still relatively a lot of parcels. So you see someone like Sylvain Pataille making several different Aligote from parcels around 100 years old or more. The winemaking at Pataille is of course different than at Ponsot. Some might say better.
Click to expand...

Something in the back of my memory from tasting the Ponsot with Danny Haas back in the mid-90s was that there was some sort of weird mutant pinot noir (is that pinot beurot?) or something. Does that sound right? It's hard to believe how long ago some of this stuff was.
Click to expand...

Some sources report that there was Pinot Gouges there, and that there was Chardonnay there. Both now gone, is what is generally said. I have read that the Pinot Gouges was out of the blend first.

Anyway, I have been in the vineyard twice, and I can tell you that there is old vine Aligoté there.
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Ooh, I've found a backgrounder thread from a few years ago.
Click to expand...

Wow. Excellent use of the search engine.

Sad is how many folks on that thread don’t post anymore or are gone. We are definitely worse off for it.

Irony is I met Victor de la Serna in person for the first time 17 days ago in Spain.
 
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Ooh, I've found a backgrounder thread from a few years ago.
Click to expand...

Wow. Excellent use of the search engine.

Sad is how many folks on that thread don’t post anymore or are gone. We are definitely worse off for it.

Irony is I met Victor de la Serna in person for the first time 17 days ago in Spain.
Click to expand...

I want to reply to a few of those posts, but whop would answer?
 
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