Pox'd Chidaine

[Brad Kane]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Heat damage doesn't taste anything like premox, and why would heat discriminate between Vouvray and Mountlouis? The description here was classic premox.

Plenty of people have reported premox on white burgundies as young as a year or two past release. This is consistent with that.

Heat causes cork failure which causes oxidation. That's the cause of like 99% of oxidized problems in the market.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by MLipton:
Brad, according to my records both these bottles were purchased from the same lot of wines sold by Envoyer. Granted, there is no guarantee that they all were sourced from the same source, but Occam's razor...

originally posted by Michael Lewis:
Nope. Bought mine from Envoyer out on the west coast.

What did the corks look like? Michael knows my suspicion that a high percentage of these West Coast grey market wines are cooked.

That being said, I no longer cellar Chidaine though I really enjoy the wines.

 

[Keith Levenberg]

originally posted by Brad Kane:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Heat damage doesn't taste anything like premox, and why would heat discriminate between Vouvray and Mountlouis? The description here was classic premox.

Plenty of people have reported premox on white burgundies as young as a year or two past release. This is consistent with that.

Heat causes cork failure which causes oxidation. That's the cause of like 99% of oxidized problems in the market.

Does cork failure discriminate between Vouvray and Montlouis? Anyway, the profile of oxidized wines due to leaks or heat is totally different from premox. In the former case you usually get something like maderization and elevated VA.

 

[Brad Kane]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

originally posted by Brad Kane:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Heat damage doesn't taste anything like premox, and why would heat discriminate between Vouvray and Mountlouis? The description here was classic premox.

Plenty of people have reported premox on white burgundies as young as a year or two past release. This is consistent with that.

Heat causes cork failure which causes oxidation. That's the cause of like 99% of oxidized problems in the market.

Does cork failure discriminate between Vouvray and Montlouis? Anyway, the profile of oxidized wines due to leaks or heat is totally different from premox. In the former case you usually get something like maderization and elevated VA.

It does if they're shipped at different times.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Heat damage doesn't taste anything like premox, and why would heat discriminate between Vouvray and Mountlouis? The description here was classic premox.

Plenty of people have reported premox on white burgundies as young as a year or two past release. This is consistent with that.

Heat damage and premox both result in sherried wines, so I don't know where that is coming from.

From the commonly understood definition of premature oxidation, something 1-2 years post-release wouldn't qualify. Premox is when you follow a wine over several years and then it mysteriously falls apart. IME, I haven't experienced the one good/one bad bottle; either they all go or none do.

Something "premoxed" 1-2 years after release was spoiled some other way, either prior or at bottling or through exposure to heat.

 

[Michael Lewis]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by MLipton:
Brad, according to my records both these bottles were purchased from the same lot of wines sold by Envoyer. Granted, there is no guarantee that they all were sourced from the same source, but Occam's razor...

originally posted by Michael Lewis:
Nope. Bought mine from Envoyer out on the west coast.

What did the corks look like? Michael knows my suspicion that a high percentage of these West Coast grey market wines are cooked.

That being said, I no longer cellar Chidaine though I really enjoy the wines.

I don't remember what the corks looked like - I started drinking the 2008 in 2010 and it has been years since I finished the last one. But I don't remember anything particularly negative about the corks, and I definitely had some beautiful bottles of the 2008 early on from the same source. Also, it sounds like Maureen had the same issue from a different source and coast.

But Nathan, I finally forced myself to unsubscribe from the Envoyer mailing list, effective a couple of months ago. Thought you'd like to know.

 

[Brad Kane]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Heat damage doesn't taste anything like premox, and why would heat discriminate between Vouvray and Mountlouis? The description here was classic premox.

Plenty of people have reported premox on white burgundies as young as a year or two past release. This is consistent with that.

Heat damage and premox both result in sherried wines, so I don't know where that is coming from.

From the commonly understood definition of premature oxidation, something 1-2 years post-release wouldn't qualify. Premox is when you follow a wine over several years and then it mysteriously falls apart. IME, I haven't experienced the one good/one bad bottle; either they all go or none do.

Something "premoxed" 1-2 years after release was spoiled some other way, either prior or at bottling or through exposure to heat.

Precisely.

 

[Keith Levenberg]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Heat damage doesn't taste anything like premox, and why would heat discriminate between Vouvray and Mountlouis? The description here was classic premox.

Plenty of people have reported premox on white burgundies as young as a year or two past release. This is consistent with that.

Heat damage and premox both result in sherried wines, so I don't know where that is coming from.

From the commonly understood definition of premature oxidation, something 1-2 years post-release wouldn't qualify. Premox is when you follow a wine over several years and then it mysteriously falls apart. IME, I haven't experienced the one good/one bad bottle; either they all go or none do.

Something "premoxed" 1-2 years after release was spoiled some other way, either prior or at bottling or through exposure to heat.

Not sure why people are struggling so much with this. Sherried flavors and maderized flavors aren't the same thing. And of course oxidation 1-2 years post-release qualifies as premox. That's just as "mysteriously falling apart" as oxidation 7 years post release. Wines afflicted with the issue fall apart sooner or later and sometimes the sooner is "shockingly soon."

 

[MLipton]

Let's summarize what we know about this particular case. I've opened two bottles from the same lot: one was pristine, the other badly oxidized. The cork AFAIK was fine: it wasn't blue, it held a good seal (i.e., it was hard to pull) and there were no signs of seepage. There are multiple reports of oxidation on the Internet. It's possible that all come from faulty storage, but again Occam's razor. This is 3+ years after release, which puts it in the same window as some white Burgundies that have been called out for premox.

I am not sure that it's a case of premox. How could I without a broad sampling? But I am also not convinced that it's a case of heat damage in the transport chain. I should also mention that I've had '08 and '10 Chidaine wines, also purchased from Envoyer, with no problems.

Michael and VLM, what's the deal with Envoyer? Concerns about sourcing?

Mark Lipton

 

[VLM]

originally posted by MLipton:
Let's summarize what we know about this particular case. I've opened two bottles from the same lot: one was pristine, the other badly oxidized. The cork AFAIK was fine: it wasn't blue, it held a good seal (i.e., it was hard to pull) and there were no signs of seepage. There are multiple reports of oxidation on the Internet. It's possible that all come from faulty storage, but again Occam's razor. This is 3+ years after release, which puts it in the same window as some white Burgundies that have been called out for premox.

I am not sure that it's a case of premox. How could I without a broad sampling? But I am also not convinced that it's a case of heat damage in the transport chain. I should also mention that I've had '08 and '10 Chidaine wines, also purchased from Envoyer, with no problems.

Michael and VLM, what's the deal with Envoyer? Concerns about sourcing?

Mark Lipton

No particular concerns about Envoyer. As far as grey marketers go, I think they are among the best. My issue is more about grey market wines in general both from experience and what I think they do to the market.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
Heat damage doesn't taste anything like premox, and why would heat discriminate between Vouvray and Mountlouis? The description here was classic premox.

Plenty of people have reported premox on white burgundies as young as a year or two past release. This is consistent with that.

Heat damage and premox both result in sherried wines, so I don't know where that is coming from.

From the commonly understood definition of premature oxidation, something 1-2 years post-release wouldn't qualify. Premox is when you follow a wine over several years and then it mysteriously falls apart. IME, I haven't experienced the one good/one bad bottle; either they all go or none do.

Something "premoxed" 1-2 years after release was spoiled some other way, either prior or at bottling or through exposure to heat.

Not sure why people are struggling so much with this. Sherried flavors and maderized flavors aren't the same thing. And of course oxidation 1-2 years post-release qualifies as premox. That's just as "mysteriously falling apart" as oxidation 7 years post release. Wines afflicted with the issue fall apart sooner or later and sometimes the sooner is "shockingly soon."

No, I think you are confusing two different phenomena.

 

[Keith Levenberg]

There are two different phenomena. But all the indicators put this particular bottle in the category of the premox phenomenon, not the hot truck problem.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

So, tonight's 2014 Choisilles was fine. While four good 2014 Chidaines out of four do not a summer make, perhaps the ones on this side of the pond are less prone, which may be a clue to the nature of the problem.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
So, tonight's 2014 Choisilles was fine. While four good 2014 Chidaines out of four do not a summer make, perhaps the ones on this side of the pond are less prone, which may be a clue to the nature of the problem.

Proximity to the Prime Meridian?

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
So, tonight's 2014 Choisilles was fine. While four good 2014 Chidaines out of four do not a summer make, perhaps the ones on this side of the pond are less prone, which may be a clue to the nature of the problem.

Proximity to the Prime Meridian?

That's funny, but so many wines that we get in Europe travel a very short distance under temperature-controlled conditions. Very different than a trans-Atlantic journey.

 

[Michael Lewis]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by MLipton:
Let's summarize what we know about this particular case. I've opened two bottles from the same lot: one was pristine, the other badly oxidized. The cork AFAIK was fine: it wasn't blue, it held a good seal (i.e., it was hard to pull) and there were no signs of seepage. There are multiple reports of oxidation on the Internet. It's possible that all come from faulty storage, but again Occam's razor. This is 3+ years after release, which puts it in the same window as some white Burgundies that have been called out for premox.

I am not sure that it's a case of premox. How could I without a broad sampling? But I am also not convinced that it's a case of heat damage in the transport chain. I should also mention that I've had '08 and '10 Chidaine wines, also purchased from Envoyer, with no problems.

Michael and VLM, what's the deal with Envoyer? Concerns about sourcing?

Mark Lipton

No particular concerns about Envoyer. As far as grey marketers go, I think they are among the best. My issue is more about grey market wines in general both from experience and what I think they do to the market.

My other concern with Envoyer was that I was sick of deleting 25 e-mails for every one that had something I was actually interested in, and then finding out half the time I did reply that the wine I wanted was already sold out. It was a giant time suck for me.

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Michael Lewis:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by MLipton:
Let's summarize what we know about this particular case. I've opened two bottles from the same lot: one was pristine, the other badly oxidized. The cork AFAIK was fine: it wasn't blue, it held a good seal (i.e., it was hard to pull) and there were no signs of seepage. There are multiple reports of oxidation on the Internet. It's possible that all come from faulty storage, but again Occam's razor. This is 3+ years after release, which puts it in the same window as some white Burgundies that have been called out for premox.

I am not sure that it's a case of premox. How could I without a broad sampling? But I am also not convinced that it's a case of heat damage in the transport chain. I should also mention that I've had '08 and '10 Chidaine wines, also purchased from Envoyer, with no problems.

Michael and VLM, what's the deal with Envoyer? Concerns about sourcing?

Mark Lipton

No particular concerns about Envoyer. As far as grey marketers go, I think they are among the best. My issue is more about grey market wines in general both from experience and what I think they do to the market.

My other concern with Envoyer was that I was sick of deleting 25 e-mails for every one that had something I was actually interested in, and then finding out half the time I did reply that the wine I wanted was already sold out. It was a giant time suck for me.

Hah! I certainly get that. I'll stay subscribed since it's my primary source of Chidaine, Baudry and Pavelot, but life here in flyover country is different from that of you in the big city.

Mark Lipton

 

[Bill Lundstrom]

i've bought Chidiane's wines since late 90's. stored them in temp control cellar and have mostly been disappointed.in my opinion they oxidized very quickly for good quality chenin fruit. ill still buy but no way i will try and cellar them.

 

[Brad Kane]

originally posted by Bill Lundstrom:
i've bought Chidiane's wines since late 90's. stored them in temp control cellar and have mostly been disappointed.in my opinion they oxidized very quickly for good quality chenin fruit. ill still buy but no way i will try and cellar them.

My experience as well. Certainly for his Montlouis. The '08 Le Bouchet Vouvray is still going strong, though.

 

[Keith Levenberg]

originally posted by Michael Lewis:
My other concern with Envoyer was that I was sick of deleting 25 e-mails for every one that had something I was actually interested in, and then finding out half the time I did reply that the wine I wanted was already sold out. It was a giant time suck for me.

yeah, that's a real annoyance with them. Email blasts are NOT the way to sell consignments where you have 1 or 2 bottles of each thing. A decent web site would do the job.