TN: Chateauneuf-du-Pape Stems

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Todd Abrams

Todd Abrams
Domaine de la Biscarelle “Les Anglaises” 2015 is almost exclusively grenache, fermented and raised in concrete. I’m torn. While the wine has generous and complex fruit, and is well-balanced in many ways, the relatively hard tannins and a somewhat green flavor on the finish clearly convey the use of stems during fermentation. It is a young wine, and although I can’t see the future, it is difficult to imagine it coming into full balance before its fruit pales.

Any experience with the development of stemmy wines?
 
The handful of CdP makers who never destem--Charvin, Rayas, Pegau, Mourre du Tendre (at least before the change in winemakers in 2013), a couple of others--are among the best in the appellation. Stems do add both tannin and a certain earthiness. Too much green probably means it wasn't done well. But these things are a matter of taste and you may prefer destemmed wine.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Too much green probably means it wasn't done well.
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I'm not entirely sure I understand what that means, as it seems to imply intervention of some sort in the cellar, while greenness would generally come from stems that are not fully ripe.
 
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Too much green probably means it wasn't done well.
Click to expand...

I'm not entirely sure I understand what that means, as it seems to imply intervention of some sort in the cellar, while greenness would generally come from stems that are not fully ripe.
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Stems not fully ripe implies a harvest that was too early, a problem in CdP if one wants to avoid overripe wines and still destem. I should say, though, that without tasting the twine, I don't know if it's just a matter of my taste for stemminess being different from that of the OP. I would not want to get to theoretical about this. Especially, since I know that in the Jura Overnoy destemmed and I certainly do like his wines.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
The handful of CdP makers who never destem--Charvin, Rayas, Pegau, Mourre du Tendre (at least before the change in winemakers in 2013), a couple of others--are among the best in the appellation. Stems do add both tannin and a certain earthiness. Too much green probably means it wasn't done well. But these things are a matter of taste and you may prefer destemmed wine.
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I enjoy plenty of wines that are produced with various percentages of whole-cluster fermentation. I suppose I should have been more clear in communicating that this particular wine is one of the most overtly stemmy wines I’ve ever tasted. I’m just wondering if those hard tannins are going to resolve enough so that the wine comes into balance before the fruit fades.
 
So there are two things here, though they are obviously connected, stemminess and hard tannins. If you can distinguish between stem tannins and other kinds other than by the taste that comes from stems, you're a better man than I am, Gunga Din. With regard to the question of whether the tannin will outlast the fruit, even if I tasted the wine, it would be too early for me to tell. I don't start making dire predictions about CdPs into they are 8-10 years old. So that's a lot of verbiage to say th a O dunno.
 
I’ve never encountered that hardness of tannin with even the most ambitious grenache that hasn’t seen any new oak. I assume that it must come from the stems.

I realize the futility of discussing the possible development of a young wine that you haven’t tasted. I merely thought there might be some illuminating generalizations here.
 
Stems not fully ripe
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So called "ripe stems" are the worst, by far, in terms of harsh tannins.
Do the experiment yourself : a tea of green stems and a tea of lignified brown grey stems (so called ripe) ... The later will release tannins extremely fast, especially with high alcohol content such in CNP. The green ones (typicaly on gamay in Bojo) will give a lot more herbal freshness and an alcaline sensation than tannins for the same amount of time of contact with water.

So the tannins quality is much more driven by the know-how and technique of making of the producer, than by the "ripeness of stems"
Carbo is obviously better than pigeage, short maceration better than long (very long being something else), extraction without alcohol vs extraction at the end alcoholic fermetation...

Ripe or unripe means something for a fruit.
Stem is wood and wood only.
 
Eric, while we're on the subject of the ripeness of the parts: I've read about vignerons who wait for ripeness of the pips - that they go firm and brown. Is that also a lignification process or is that something else? (I don't think of pips as 'woody' but not sure what other category they fall into.)
 
Pips is a different story.

There are a whole part of the fruit, in fact the ultimate goal of it..., and we all know that their skin and almond will reach a stage of ripeness where both will taste totally different than they did earlier.
The almond sweeter and oiler, the skin less tannic.
Again the tea test is quite impressive to do...
 
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