From The New Yorker, another volley against the anti-pleasure elite

[Keith Levenberg]

originally posted by Rahsaan:
Sure, if you want to find evidence of pompous snobbism you can go to new-wave Brooklyn restaurants and pick out examples of all types. But what does that tell me about orange wine more broadly? I would want a better since of the overall landscape. Hard to take off the social science inference hat.

But if you treat it as more of a commentary on new-wave Brooklyn restaurants than a commentary on orange wine, pas de problème.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Lee Short:
Fun writing, yeah, but since when do "extra-ripe wines" have a "vinegar-ish bite"?

In theory, at least, there is a positive correlation between ripeness and volatility in the absence of SO2 or sterile filtration.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Lee Short:
Fun writing, yeah, but since when do "extra-ripe wines" have a "vinegar-ish bite"?

In theory, at least, there is a positive correlation between ripeness and volatility in the absence of SO2 or sterile filtration.

And higher pH plays a role, as the lower the fixed acidity is the more microorganisms go wild.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

Trevor Roper was given to bombast, and his euro-centric conservatism dd make many of his judgments well-written Whig prejudice. But it does overshoot the mark to say he was always wrong. He was a significant historian of Nazi Germany and of Early Modern England. The problem is, at least when I was an undergraduate, one read mostly his short polemical stuff. It was entertaining, though.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

originally posted by Rahsaan:
Sure, if you want to find evidence of pompous snobbism you can go to new-wave Brooklyn restaurants and pick out examples of all types. But what does that tell me about orange wine more broadly? I would want a better since of the overall landscape. Hard to take off the social science inference hat.

But if you treat it as more of a commentary on new-wave Brooklyn restaurants than a commentary on orange wine, pas de problème.

To be fair, every magazine article doesn't have to be a perfectly-representative study that clearly delineates statistical patterns. The whole point is the perceptive angle, but the key to that is being precise about what you are perceiving.

So yes, a commentary on certain types of diners in certain types of restaurants would have been a better way of using orange wine to make a point about contemporary society.

But what do I know. He probably spent less time writing the piece than we have spent commenting here!

 

[Jay Miller]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:

originally posted by Rahsaan:
Sure, if you want to find evidence of pompous snobbism you can go to new-wave Brooklyn restaurants and pick out examples of all types. But what does that tell me about orange wine more broadly? I would want a better since of the overall landscape. Hard to take off the social science inference hat.

But if you treat it as more of a commentary on new-wave Brooklyn restaurants than a commentary on orange wine, pas de problème.

To be fair, every magazine article doesn't have to be a perfectly-representative study that clearly delineates statistical patterns. The whole point is the perceptive angle, but the key to that is being precise about what you are perceiving.

So yes, a commentary on certain types of diners in certain types of restaurants would have been a better way of using orange wine to make a point about contemporary society.

But what do I know. He probably spent less time writing the piece than we have spent commenting here!

The thing about that type of restaurant (and we have one here in Jersey City too) is that their wine list is vetted not for the quality of the wine but for the philosophical rigor of the wine maker when it comes to natural wine. So it will be a hodge podge of the wonderful and the undrinkable.

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Lee Short:
Fun writing, yeah, but since when do "extra-ripe wines" have a "vinegar-ish bite"?

In theory, at least, there is a positive correlation between ripeness and volatility in the absence of SO2 or sterile filtration.

And higher pH plays a role, as the lower the fixed acidity is the more microorganisms go wild.

High pH plus no or extremely low SO2 is wine's equivalent of wearing a Kick Me sign on your back.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Lee Short:
Fun writing, yeah, but since when do "extra-ripe wines" have a "vinegar-ish bite"?

In theory, at least, there is a positive correlation between ripeness and volatility in the absence of SO2 or sterile filtration.

And higher pH plays a role, as the lower the fixed acidity is the more microorganisms go wild.

High pH plus no or extremely low SO2 is wine's equivalent of wearing a Kick Me sign on your back.

Yes, and then transferring Masonobu Fukuoka's "do-nothing" farming (a misnomer anyway) philosophy to the cellar, particularly as applies to topping up barrels.

 

[Lee Short]

Huh. I stand corrected. I didn't even know that overripe, low-pH natural wines were a thing. Guess I need to step out of my LDM bubble and take a look around at the broader market.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Lee Short:
Huh. I stand corrected. I didn't even know that overripe, low-pH natural wines were a thing. Guess I need to step out of my LDM bubble and take a look around at the broader market.

A lot of natural wines from the south of France (e.g., Languedoc-Roussillon, where land is/was cheaper) and much of Spain and Italy, not to mention Australia, fit this mold. And thanks to global warming, or global negligence, a fair number of natural wines from the cooler regions seem headed this way too. So much so that a lack of defects arouses suspicion among the recently converted.

Wines from such places tend to have lower fixed acidity, so may rely on volatile acidity to achieve a semblance of balance. That works well for those who don't care to distinguish.

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Lee Short:
Fun writing, yeah, but since when do "extra-ripe wines" have a "vinegar-ish bite"?

In theory, at least, there is a positive correlation between ripeness and volatility in the absence of SO2 or sterile filtration.

And higher pH plays a role, as the lower the fixed acidity is the more microorganisms go wild.

High pH plus no or extremely low SO2 is wine's equivalent of wearing a Kick Me sign on your back.

Yes, and then transferring Masonobu Fukuoka's "do-nothing" farming (a misnomer anyway) philosophy to the cellar, particularly as applies to topping up barrels.

Indeed, there's a cultural or psychological issue at work here too. Natural wines seem to attract DIY, self-taught winemakers on low budgets. But to make low/no SO2 wines successfully, you are better off with a deep understanding of the chemistry and regular access to a good lab.

 

[Salil Benegal]

originally posted by Rahsaan:
We would criticize articles like this for 'selecting on the dependent variable'.

Like reading Malcolm Gladwell, but about wine.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

Good response from Simon Woolf.

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Good response from Simon Woolf.

Off-dry Riesling is "hard to understand"?! Nit-picking aside, he makes some good points. The funny thing about this particular teapot tempest is that the reach and exposure of orange wine is quite small, it's not much of a threat or blessing to most wine drinkers. Certainly compared to "natural" wine, ultra-dry sparkling or white wines, or long hangtime reds, about which he could have written similar articles.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Good response from Simon Woolf.

Brother Eric has weighed in.

 

[Simon J Woolf]

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):

Off-dry Riesling is "hard to understand"?!

For ordinary wine drinkers, yes. Ask anyone who runs a bottle shop - nothing scares off non-wine geek customers faster than telling them a wine is sweet (or even off-dry)

Even if those same customers would probably enjoy the wine...

It's similar to the way non-experts will describe very fruity or aromatic wines as "sweet" (even when they're dry), or sweet wines as "fruity".

So yes - off-dry Riesling confuses and worries people. It's not so much how it tastes, it's the idea of it, and the way its described.

 

[Peter Creasey]

Simon, welcome!

. . . . Pete

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Simon J Woolf:

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):

Off-dry Riesling is "hard to understand"?!

For ordinary wine drinkers, yes. Ask anyone who runs a bottle shop - nothing scares off non-wine geek customers faster than telling them a wine is sweet (or even off-dry)

Even if those same customers would probably enjoy the wine...

It's similar to the way non-experts will describe very fruity or aromatic wines as "sweet" (even when they're dry), or sweet wines as "fruity".

So yes - off-dry Riesling confuses and worries people. It's not so much how it tastes, it's the idea of it, and the way its described.

True, to some extent. And yes, quite a few people when they smell, say, Austrian riesling, are 100% sure it is sweet (no one on this board, for sure).

I think the issue is that difficult to understand is not quite right, but as Simon says "those same customers would probably enjoy the wine" and often do.

I had to deal with this issue almost my entire ITB career having had what might likely have been the wine list with the most fruity-style rieslings in the SF bay area.

It was, alas, an unending "battle," if you will, but one that many servers and sommeliers found their way around, sometimes offering tastes with a particular dish. For some people - and somewhat inexplicably - the idea of off-dry wines was horrifying, notwithstanding the fact that they were really the only stellar match with spicy or sweet (or both) dishes.

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by Simon J Woolf:

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):

Off-dry Riesling is "hard to understand"?!

For ordinary wine drinkers, yes. Ask anyone who runs a bottle shop - nothing scares off non-wine geek customers faster than telling them a wine is sweet (or even off-dry)

Even if those same customers would probably enjoy the wine...

It's similar to the way non-experts will describe very fruity or aromatic wines as "sweet" (even when they're dry), or sweet wines as "fruity".

So yes - off-dry Riesling confuses and worries people. It's not so much how it tastes, it's the idea of it, and the way its described.

I have worked in a bottle shop. Also done consumer research in the wine category for years. My experience has not been so drastic as yours, but I see your point. I was thinking more about off-dry Riesling in sensory terms. I'm sure you've seen the inverse experience, wherein someone loves a wine in the 1-2% RS range that they think of as "dry."

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by mark e:

I had to deal with this issue almost my entire ITB career having had what might likely have been the wine list with the most fruity-style rieslings in the SF bay area.

It was, alas, an unending "battle," if you will, but one that many servers and sommeliers found their way around, sometimes offering tastes with a particular dish. For some people - and somewhat inexplicably - the idea of off-dry wines was horrifying, notwithstanding the fact that they were really the only stellar match with spicy or sweet (or both) dishes.

I have fond memories of that list. Isn't it funny that some people think you have to have a dry wine with food, and then order a dish with palm sugar or balsamic vinegar or sun-dried tomatoes or port reduction in the sauce. Apparently sweet is OK on the food, but not next to the food!