TN: The Virtual Tasting #4 (August 13, 2020)

[Jeff Grossman]

attendees: Don, Eden & Scott, Jay, Jeff, Lisa, Scott & Anne-Marie, Seth; and Jayson

We're getting it down pat: two Manhattan rendezvous plus secondary eastern/western distribution. We still have Jayson dialing-in from Floridia while the absent Victor gave his place to Eden and Scott.

Jayson was drinking:
Ch. Cantemerle 2016 Haut-Medoc - wine from Macau!, "comparatively opulent" -Neal Martin, "Likable" -Jayson, none of us drink much young Bordeaux at all and this was quite nice

The rest of us went blindly into this good flight:

Alzinger 1997 Loibner Weingarten Gruner Veltliner Smaragd - we are all over the place on this one (chenin, chardonnay, white rhone, "Rioja!" -Magic 8-Ball); when I focus a bit more, it comes to me that this is an aromatic grape from an older vintage... I guess "old Alsatian" and soon enough add "gruner veltliner", yay me!

F. Cotat 2014 Sancerre Rose - pungent nose, weird, stinky, spicy, "Rhubarb!" -Anne-Marie, "Like an old-fashioned perm" -Eden, "This is not what it was like when I poured it" -Jay; about 20 minutes later the nose has settled down and it does taste more normal... Jayson deduced, from the color and the circumstances, what it had to be; and it did get better as it opened; this bottle is still not the cat's meow

Catherine & Pierre Breton 2010 Bourgueil "Les Perrieres" - this is young and crisp and pure cab franc, not much pyrazines or tobacco, more bright and light and glou-glou, refreshing

Olga Raffault 2010 Chinon "Les Picasses" - similar enough to definitely be another cab franc but this is a little thicker, weightier, touch of funk (but way cleaner than Olga in the Old Days)

Gouges 1996 Nuits-St-Georges "Les Vaucrains" - chosen for Victor (who couldn't attend but, you know)... strict, stiff, tough, nobody is guessing; we're told it's Burgundy and it was carafed for 1.5 hours before mini-bottling but none of that shows in the glass; about 45 minutes later maybe it has yielded one almost-ripe cherry in flavor; I do not have the patience for this (if it ever comes around); Day 2: Seth says it is finally coming around (and is beautiful)

Pinon 1990 Vouvray "Cuvee Botrytis" - ooh, this has that wicked chenin-smells-like-cork-taint thing in spades, weak aroma and faint palate of tea and honey, and several of us are ready to call it quits but Lisa, the Schnozz that Knozz, says no; about a half-hour later the wine finally unclenches: it's very sweet, with Pinon's trademark silky texture and creamsicle / sweaty palms flavor profile, and *very* botrytized, and quite yummy; Day 3: fully open, tangerine and kumquat with an overlay of fragrant honey, intensely fruity but not just as citrus, wow wine

The walk-on by the Magic 8-Ball was, alas, curtailed by technical issues on my side but if you want to use it yourself, go here and load it up with your favorite answers, e.g.:
It is certainly syrah
It is decidedly chard
Without a doubt: melon
Yes definitely cab franc
Italian: you may rely on it
As I see it: rioja
You know alcohol is poisonous
Most likely carignane
Outlook good but Cakebread bad
Signs point to nebbiolo
Reply hazy try again
Ask again later
Better not tell you now
Cannot predict now
Keep drinking and ask again
Don't dump it
My reply is grenache
My sources say no wood
The wine is very doubtful

 

[Brad Kane]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

Pinon 1990 Vouvray "Cuvee Botrytis" - ooh, this has that wicked chenin-smells-like-cork-taint thing in spades, weak aroma and faint palate of tea and honey, and several of us are ready to call it quits but Lisa, the Schnozz that Knozz, says no; about a half-hour later the wine finally unclenches: it's very sweet, with Pinon's trademark silky texture and creamsicle / sweaty palms flavor profile, and *very* botrytized, and quite yummy; Day 3: fully open, tangerine and kumquat with an overlay of fragrant honey, intensely fruity but not just as citrus, wow wine

Speaking of whether a Vouvray is corked or not, have you noticed that, as a group of Chenin drinkers, virtually none of us have reported on lanolin/wet wool in a newly released Chenin in the past twenty or so years? Global warming? Change in wine making, as in not pressing the grapes as hard? Less sulfur? I find it intriguing that that note has basically disappeared.

 

[Jayson Cohen]

My note on the 2016 Cantemerle:

This is a good one. Very classic. A large percentage of Merlot adding a rounder and dark red fruited character to the Cab Sauvignon, which dominates the blend. (After tasting I looked it up: 52 % CS to 39 Merlot, the rest CF and PV.) Very nice medium weight here. Just right. The aromas tend to cedar, black raspberry, and occasional muted licorice and petrichor. The acidity is nicely refreshing but integrated. Tannins are not exactly strict but present. Great balance. Almost gulpable with that bit of zing in the mid-palate. I had it with a bison steak from the grill, which was good but it might have been better with a beef steak (I don’t eat those anymore) or even duck unfruited. (Strangely fabulous with the bison was my leftovers of 2018 Huet Le Mont Demisec.)

Just as good on Day 2.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Brad Kane:
Speaking of whether a Vouvray is corked or not, have you noticed that, as a group of Chenin drinkers, virtually none of us have reported on lanolin/wet wool in a newly released Chenin in the past twenty or so years? Global warming? Change in wine making, as in not pressing the grapes as hard? Less sulfur? I find it intriguing that that note has basically disappeared.

According to that long article on wine faults (posted in the 'plastic' thread) the 'wet wool' scent is an oxidation flaw. That would align with your observation: makers today are much more careful about exposing musts to air, leaving the top off the tank, bottling sooner, etc.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
I had it with a bison steak from the grill, which was good but it might have been better with a beef steak (I don’t eat those anymore)

Thanks for the note on a wine I have been considering buying, but really I'm more interested in Bison and not beef. Care to extrapolate?

 

[Jayson Cohen]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
I had it with a bison steak from the grill, which was good but it might have been better with a beef steak (I don’t eat those anymore)

Thanks for the note on a wine I have been considering buying, but really I'm more interested in Bison and not beef. Care to extrapolate?

Environmental effects. Both per animal —although not very well studied, for various reasons, raising a bison results in less deleterious effects than a beef cow— and because of scale—the average person in the US eats 82 pounds of beef a year versus .07 lbs of bison.

I gave up beef In 1994 except for a rare cheat, mostly in social situations. It was after investigating the environmental effects of raising cows for meat and spending my summer that year with a good friend (he still is) who is an environmentalist and a vegetarian.

A health side effect is my consumption of red meat has been pretty low for over 25 years.

I admittedly do enjoy a good steak, beef or bison.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
I had it with a bison steak from the grill, which was good but it might have been better with a beef steak (I don’t eat those anymore)

Thanks for the note on a wine I have been considering buying, but really I'm more interested in Bison and not beef. Care to extrapolate?

Environmental effects. Both per animal —although not very well studied, for various reasons, raising a bison results in less deleterious effects than a beef cow— and because of scale—the average person in the US eats 82 pounds of beef a year versus .07 lbs of bison.

I gave up beef In 1994 except for a rare cheat, mostly in social situations. It was after investigating the environmental effects of raising cows for meat and spending my summer that year with a good friend (he still is) who is an environmentalist and a vegetarian.

A health side effect is my consumption of red meat has been pretty low for over 25 years.

I admittedly do enjoy a good steak, beef or bison.

That makes sense and what I expected. Beef shouldn't be so artificially cheap in the US (in fact, a lot of consumption problems would be solved if consumers paid the true cost of things). Funny how R's don't mint government handouts to favored industries.

I think we're well below average in our beef consumption, but also bison consumption, we eat more pork and chicken because we have excellent local sources. Something I'll look into.

 

[Jay Miller]

1997 Alzinger Loibner Weingarten Gruner Veltliner Smaragd
Despite being decanted into small bottles 10 hours earlier this needed time in the glass to open.
On opening some waxiness, some underripe peach, a touch heavy at this point but really some gorgeous richness
keeps getting better with air. beeswax and fresh linen with undertones of honeydew. Loved this, my WOTN

 

[MarkS]

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
..it might have been better with a beef steak (I don’t eat those anymore)

No tomatoes for you?

 

[MarkS]

originally posted by Brad Kane:
Speaking of whether a Vouvray is corked or not, have you noticed that, as a group of Chenin drinkers, virtually none of us have reported on lanolin/wet wool in a newly released Chenin in the past twenty or so years? Global warming? Change in wine making, as in not pressing the grapes as hard? Less sulfur? I find it intriguing that that note has basically disappeared.

I still come across the note, but not always and not identifiably so. A recent Guibertau didn't show any such notes.

 

[Jayson Cohen]

originally posted by MarkS:

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
..it might have been better with a beef steak (I don’t eat those anymore)

No tomatoes for you?

Exactly right.

 

[Jayson Cohen]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
I had it with a bison steak from the grill, which was good but it might have been better with a beef steak (I don’t eat those anymore)

Thanks for the note on a wine I have been considering buying, but really I'm more interested in Bison and not beef. Care to extrapolate?

Environmental effects. Both per animal —although not very well studied, for various reasons, raising a bison results in less deleterious effects than a beef cow— and because of scale—the average person in the US eats 82 pounds of beef a year versus .07 lbs of bison.

I gave up beef In 1994 except for a rare cheat, mostly in social situations. It was after investigating the environmental effects of raising cows for meat and spending my summer that year with a good friend (he still is) who is an environmentalist and a vegetarian.

A health side effect is my consumption of red meat has been pretty low for over 25 years.

I admittedly do enjoy a good steak, beef or bison.

That makes sense and what I expected. Beef shouldn't be so artificially cheap in the US (in fact, a lot of consumption problems would be solved if consumers paid the true cost of things). Funny how R's don't mint government handouts to favored industries.

I think we're well below average in our beef consumption, but also bison consumption, we eat more pork and chicken because we have excellent local sources. Something I'll look into.

I am somewhat jealous of your ability to source locally. Living on the UWS, as you probably know from personal experience, “local” sourcing (or farm-to-table type sourcing) typically means either a long drive or paying exorbitant pricing at Manhattan brick & mortar or farmer markets.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
I had it with a bison steak from the grill, which was good but it might have been better with a beef steak (I don’t eat those anymore)

Thanks for the note on a wine I have been considering buying, but really I'm more interested in Bison and not beef. Care to extrapolate?

Environmental effects. Both per animal —although not very well studied, for various reasons, raising a bison results in less deleterious effects than a beef cow— and because of scale—the average person in the US eats 82 pounds of beef a year versus .07 lbs of bison.

I gave up beef In 1994 except for a rare cheat, mostly in social situations. It was after investigating the environmental effects of raising cows for meat and spending my summer that year with a good friend (he still is) who is an environmentalist and a vegetarian.

A health side effect is my consumption of red meat has been pretty low for over 25 years.

I admittedly do enjoy a good steak, beef or bison.

That makes sense and what I expected. Beef shouldn't be so artificially cheap in the US (in fact, a lot of consumption problems would be solved if consumers paid the true cost of things). Funny how R's don't mint government handouts to favored industries.

I think we're well below average in our beef consumption, but also bison consumption, we eat more pork and chicken because we have excellent local sources. Something I'll look into.

Although the meat industry (not just beef) has successfully fought against further regulation and certainly profits from operating like the agribusiness it is, with the resulting animal cruelty, I do not think it gets the kind of support that, say, dairy or wheat have gotten. This country's appetite for beef creates massive economies of scale that have always kept it cheaper than elsewhere. I would agree that it is strange for hamburger to be a less expensive source of protein than beans, given the food pyramid, but the fault isn't unnatural government support but unnatural market distortion of farm land use.

I believe Jayson's point was that beef was particularly bad for the environment, which is true, and even truer of corn fed than of grass fed cattle. On the other hand, the agribusiness treatment of chicken and pork is much worse. Of course, if you are buying from local providers, that is probably not an issue. But there are also local providers of beef.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
I had it with a bison steak from the grill, which was good but it might have been better with a beef steak (I don’t eat those anymore)

Thanks for the note on a wine I have been considering buying, but really I'm more interested in Bison and not beef. Care to extrapolate?

Environmental effects. Both per animal —although not very well studied, for various reasons, raising a bison results in less deleterious effects than a beef cow— and because of scale—the average person in the US eats 82 pounds of beef a year versus .07 lbs of bison.

I gave up beef In 1994 except for a rare cheat, mostly in social situations. It was after investigating the environmental effects of raising cows for meat and spending my summer that year with a good friend (he still is) who is an environmentalist and a vegetarian.

A health side effect is my consumption of red meat has been pretty low for over 25 years.

I admittedly do enjoy a good steak, beef or bison.

That makes sense and what I expected. Beef shouldn't be so artificially cheap in the US (in fact, a lot of consumption problems would be solved if consumers paid the true cost of things). Funny how R's don't mint government handouts to favored industries.

I think we're well below average in our beef consumption, but also bison consumption, we eat more pork and chicken because we have excellent local sources. Something I'll look into.

Although the meat industry (not just beef) has successfully fought against further regulation and certainly profits from operating like the agribusiness it is, with the resulting animal cruelty, I do not think it gets the kind of support that, say, dairy or wheat have gotten. This country's appetite for beef creates massive economies of scale that have always kept it cheaper than elsewhere. I would agree that it is strange for hamburger to be a less expensive source of protein than beans, given the food pyramid, but the fault isn't unnatural government support but unnatural market distortion of farm land use.

I believe Jayson's point was that beef was particularly bad for the environment, which is true, and even truer of corn fed than of grass fed cattle. On the other hand, the agribusiness treatment of chicken and pork is much worse. Of course, if you are buying from local providers, that is probably not an issue. But there are also local providers of beef.

Economists include environmental costs as part of the true cost of something, which is what I mean over and above the tax and/or other government handouts for large beef suppliers.

The way I understand it, the environmental impact of pork and chicken farming is far less than beef, but I haven't made a study of it.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
But there are also local providers of beef.

Beeves are much harder to raise than pork, lamb, birds. The one source I know has sold them off.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Jay Miller:
1997 Alzinger Loibner Weingarten Gruner Veltliner Smaragd
Despite being decanted into small bottles 10 hours earlier this needed time in the glass to open.
On opening some waxiness, some underripe peach, a touch heavy at this point but really some gorgeous richness
keeps getting better with air. beeswax and fresh linen with undertones of honeydew. Loved this, my WOTN

The Pinon grew up, too.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
But there are also local providers of beef.

Beeves are much harder to raise than pork, lamb, birds. The one source I know has sold them off.

I can buy local grass fed beef around here. Up to now, I have only bought lamb that way.

I agree with VLM that chicken, pork (and lamb) are all (relatively) better for the environment. My point there, was that the cruelty entailed in factory production of chicken and pork (veal too), even for ardent non-vegetarians like me, makes finding alternatively produced sources of those meats (or at least normally farmed sources) almost a moral imperative, at least if one believes that while killing and eating things is the course of nature, there is no necessity to torture them during their lifetimes in order to do it. In this sense, at least, going to the supermarket in France is considerably less fraught.

 

[MLipton]

Historically, governmental support for cattle ranching has come in the form of free grazing rights on Federal land and (like all agribusiness) the Feds refusal to enforce the 160 acre limit on water subsidies.

Mark Lipton
(I eat very little red meat, mostly fish and game. The red meat I do eat tends to be pork, venison and lamb)

 

[Jayson Cohen]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
But there are also local providers of beef.

Beeves are much harder to raise than pork, lamb, birds. The one source I know has sold them off.

I can buy local grass fed beef around here. Up to now, I have only bought lamb that way.

I agree with VLM that chicken, pork (and lamb) are all (relatively) better for the environment. My point there, was that the cruelty entailed in factory production of chicken and pork (veal too), even for ardent non-vegetarians like me, makes finding alternatively produced sources of those meats (or at least normally farmed sources) almost a moral imperative, at least if one believes that while killing and eating things is the course of nature, there is no necessity to torture them during their lifetimes in order to do it. In this sense, at least, going to the supermarket in France is considerably less fraught.

In the US there has been a proliferation of labeling of free roam animals for meat (and eggs) the last few years. Does anyone know if we can believe the labeling? That it is based on standards that are promulgated and enforced and not just (unregulated) marketing? This discussion will make me look into it but I’m wondering if others here already know.

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
But there are also local providers of beef.

Beeves are much harder to raise than pork, lamb, birds. The one source I know has sold them off.

I can buy local grass fed beef around here. Up to now, I have only bought lamb that way.

I agree with VLM that chicken, pork (and lamb) are all (relatively) better for the environment. My point there, was that the cruelty entailed in factory production of chicken and pork (veal too), even for ardent non-vegetarians like me, makes finding alternatively produced sources of those meats (or at least normally farmed sources) almost a moral imperative, at least if one believes that while killing and eating things is the course of nature, there is no necessity to torture them during their lifetimes in order to do it. In this sense, at least, going to the supermarket in France is considerably less fraught.

In the US there has been a proliferation of labeling of free roam animals for meat (and eggs) the last few years. Does anyone know if we can believe the labeling? That it is based on standards that are promulgated and enforced and not just (unregulated) marketing? This discussion will make me look into it but I’m wondering if others here already know.

From what I’ve been told, the term to be wary of is “cage-free” as regards chickens, as that term still covers situations where the chickens are confined in buildings in incredibly high density. The conditions are appalling. Free range means the chickens must be able to move about freely outdoors so that is a big deal.

Mark Lipton