Two young Chenins, one especially excellent

[VLM]

originally posted by Tristan Welles:
I am a big fan of Chidaine -- but distribution at retail can be very spotty here in the MudWest.

Clos Baudoin was seen for the first vintages after he bought it, not so much lately. Rarely, if ever, have I seen a wide representation of Chidaine cuvées on the shelf in the same way you can find Huët or, more recently, Guiberteau.

Since Chidaine split with LDM they haven't had national distribution. They are market to market and are in ours, and most of the big markets as well, but not all.

I haven't really bought them for my cellar in years (I'll drink bottles out here and there) but not for any systematic reason.

 

[robert ames]

i bought 3 bottles of 2014 clos boudoin (i think the first vintage where it was not allowed to labeled as vouvray) with great expectations, and now have opened two of them, both times finding the wine to be inexplicably ordinary.

it was neither the best of wines nor the worst of wines. . . .

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by robert ames:
it was neither the best of wines nor the worst of wines. . . .

The dickens you say!

 

[robert ames]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

originally posted by robert ames:
it was neither the best of wines nor the worst of wines. . . .

The dickens you say!

and with all due apologies.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

I was going to say that Montlouis is not Vouvray, but then I remembered that everyone here knows that. But then I forgot how to delete my own post.

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

I'm having good experiences with my 2008 & 2009 Chidaines, FWIW - Bouchet & Habert. A recent 2008 Bouchet was especially striking. At this time, I'm liking them better than Huet.

My appreciation of any kind of sweetness in wine has been traveling downhill for several years now, and Vouvray has been crowded off my shopping list. Even the secs seem have noticeable RS. White purchases these days are limited to Chablis, Pernand, dry German and Austrian Riesling, and - paradoxically - MSR Kabinet. And Sparkling.

Oswaldo, did you get any sense of how the Baudry might handle age? I have a few bottles of 2010 Baudry Chenin stashed somewhere where that I can't find it, and I wonder when I should stop trying.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
I'm having good experiences with my 2008 & 2009 Chidaines, FWIW - Bouchet & Habert. A recent 2008 Bouchet was especially striking. At this time, I'm liking them better than Huet.

The 2019 Secs from Huet may disabuse you of that. The best wines I've had from them in quite a while.

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
My appreciation of any kind of sweetness in wine has been traveling downhill for several years now, and Vouvray has been crowded off my shopping list. Even the secs seem have noticeable RS. White purchases these days are limited to Chablis, Pernand, dry German and Austrian Riesling, and - paradoxically - MSR Kabinet. And Sparkling.

We just don't have a lot of uses for residually sweet wine. Some of our favorites carry a bit of RS (Falkenstein, some Pinon and Angeli) but we don't need a lot of wines like that.

Also, see above comment on the 2019 Huet Secs.

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Oswaldo, did you get any sense of how the Baudry might handle age? I have a few bottles of 2010 Baudry Chenin stashed somewhere where that I can't find it, and I wonder when I should stop trying.

That would be interesting. I haven't managed to cellar them all that long (well the Croix Boissée is what I generally buy) but I think they'd handle it fine and might become more complex. I wish I still had some 2014s, but they were so good when I drank them, I'm OK with that.

 

[Karen Goetz]

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
I'm having good experiences with my 2008 & 2009 Chidaines, FWIW - Bouchet & Habert. A recent 2008 Bouchet was especially striking. At this time, I'm liking them better than Huet.

My appreciation of any kind of sweetness in wine has been traveling downhill for several years now, and Vouvray has been crowded off my shopping list. Even the secs seem have noticeable RS. White purchases these days are limited to Chablis, Pernand, dry German and Austrian Riesling, and - paradoxically - MSR Kabinet. And Sparkling.

Oswaldo, did you get any sense of how the Baudry might handle age? I have a few bottles of 2010 Baudry Chenin stashed somewhere where that I can't find it, and I wonder when I should stop trying.

I appreciate all the comments about Chidaine cuvées and your experience with them! Thank you.
I am curious about aging patterns of Chenin Blanc but I'm not interested in killing wines off for some intellectual reason or bragging rights on "age" of the wines I drink. I am interested in learning about progression of different sensory qualities that show with age.
My experience is that 2008 is a superb year for Chidaine wines: focused, linear, mineral. Even his richer cuvées are more streamlined. I tasted several in 2016, 2018, 2019, 2020. Perhaps this is true of other vignerons in 2008 in Touraine?
I found recently (2019-2020 tastings) that my last few bottles of 2005 and 2002 were tired and lacked vitality. Not dead, but not interesting to me.
2004 is still interesting but I will drink up.

 

[Jayson Cohen]

2008 was a very strong vintage in Montlouis and Vouvray. Cool, balanced and vibrant. My favorite since 1996.

I have a couple bottles of 2005 Clos Habert. Maybe time to check. This Cuvee, which is the one I have the most experience aging, usually needs some time in bottle to firm up and gain tertiary elements because it can be rather rich young and is almost always demisec/sec tendre.

 

[Karen Goetz]

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
2008 was a very strong vintage in Montlouis and Vouvray. Cool, balanced and vibrant. My favorite since 1996.

I have a couple bottles of 2005 Clos Habert. Maybe time to check. This Cuvee, which is the one I have the most experience aging, usually needs some time in bottle to firm up and gain tertiary elements because it can be rather rich young and is almost always demisec/sec tendre.

Let me know what you think....

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Oswaldo, did you get any sense of how the Baudry might handle age? I have a few bottles of 2010 Baudry Chenin stashed somewhere where that I can't find it, and I wonder when I should stop trying.

Normally I'd say the Baudrys not only handle age well but require it. With this 17 Grézeaux, however, I wouldn't be optimistic because it seemed flawed in a way that I'm not sure time will heal (though some say mouse eventually goes away and brett might be more acceptable/traditional in cab franc).

Hence my appeal should any kind soul have a 17 Grézeaux handy for a second opinion.

 

[Jayson Cohen]

I just pulled the trigger on a four pack of ‘17 Croix Boissée from today’s Crush offer but haven’t tried the Grezeaux or Guillot. I hope to get it home soon and try it. Then send the other 3 to the cellar for aging.

Looking forward to it given how much this year has generally stymied trying new releases.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Oswaldo, did you get any sense of how the Baudry might handle age? I have a few bottles of 2010 Baudry Chenin stashed somewhere where that I can't find it, and I wonder when I should stop trying.

Normally I'd say the Baudrys not only handle age well but require it. With this 17 Grézeaux, however, I wouldn't be optimistic because it seemed flawed in a way that I'm not sure time will heal (though some say mouse eventually goes away and brett might be more acceptable/traditional in cab franc).

Hence my appeal should any kind soul have a 17 Grézeaux handy for a second opinion.

The question was about the whites, not the reds like Grézeaux. I haven't had, nor do I see the issues that people report with brett and Baudry wines. They are certainly less bretty than many wines and I've discussed the brett issue with Matthieu who tests the wines for brett. I think a lot of people confuse brett and reduction. Combined with the early, leafy presentation of Grézeaux that may be confused with brett. Another way to deal with brett, even if a wine has it, is to source it from primary sources that move and store it well and then store it well yourself.

I think all the 2017 (there was very little for NC) went to Rue Cler. I don't have a record of bottles in my cellar. I'll check to see if there is an extra at the restaurant and check it out.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
I just pulled the trigger on a four pack of ‘17 Croix Boissée from today’s Crush offer but haven’t tried the Grezeaux or Guillot. I hope to get it home soon and try it. Then send the other 3 to the cellar for aging.

Looking forward to it given how much this year has generally stymied trying new releases.

My allocation is coming soon. NC missed the 2017 Guillot somehow. I have so much Baudry that I think I'll live. I don't drink as much cabernet franc as I used to so probably need to chill out a bit with purchasing. But then I'll have a bottle in a few years and kick myself. The only win here is to turn my back on Burgundy.

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
I'm having good experiences with my 2008 & 2009 Chidaines, FWIW - Bouchet & Habert. A recent 2008 Bouchet was especially striking. At this time, I'm liking them better than Huet.

Oswaldo, did you get any sense of how the Baudry might handle age? I have a few bottles of 2010 Baudry Chenin stashed somewhere where that I can't find it, and I wonder when I should stop trying.

That would be interesting. I haven't managed to cellar them all that long (well the Croix Boissée is what I generally buy) but I think they'd handle it fine and might become more complex. I wish I still had some 2014s, but they were so good when I drank them, I'm OK with that.

I do believe mine are Croix Boissee, as well.

I'll keep an eye out for Huet 2019 sec - though I'm not really looking for reasons to buy more bottles these days. Any particular vineyard? Bourg is my first default, when I can get them.

Thoughts on Baudry 2017-2018? I'm not really buying Burgundy now (or Bordeaux), and Loire reds look to be my mainstay reds in the outyears. As previously noted, recent Baudry samplings have turned my head.

Thoughts on Hereau?

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
I'm having good experiences with my 2008 & 2009 Chidaines, FWIW - Bouchet & Habert. A recent 2008 Bouchet was especially striking. At this time, I'm liking them better than Huet.

Oswaldo, did you get any sense of how the Baudry might handle age? I have a few bottles of 2010 Baudry Chenin stashed somewhere where that I can't find it, and I wonder when I should stop trying.

That would be interesting. I haven't managed to cellar them all that long (well the Croix Boissée is what I generally buy) but I think they'd handle it fine and might become more complex. I wish I still had some 2014s, but they were so good when I drank them, I'm OK with that.

I do believe mine are Croix Boissee, as well.

I'll keep an eye out for Huet 2019 sec - though I'm not really looking for reasons to buy more bottles these days. Any particular vineyard? Bourg is my first default, when I can get them.

Thoughts on Baudry 2017-2018? I'm not really buying Burgundy now (or Bordeaux), and Loire reds look to be my mainstay reds in the outyears. As previously noted, recent Baudry samplings have turned my head.

Thoughts on Hereau?

I thought the Bourg was the best, but everyone else preferred Le Mont but it was really splitting hairs. I'm drinking Haut-Lieu this evening and it's fantastic on its own. There are so many top notch Chenins out there in a variety of styles I wouldn't feel compelled to "go long" on any particular one unless it is your thing.

I think Baudry Croix Boissée is the cheapest truly great wine in the world. I'm a broken record at this point. I'm not sure Rougeard Bourg is better. I wouldn't dissuade you from any Baudry wine but if you've been sitting out for a while, I think breadth is the new depth. Fewer bottles of more wines.

 

[MLipton]

I opened an 09 Grezeaux for some non-winegeek friends earlier this week during a retreat in the Smokies. It was drop dead gorgeous, still primarily fruit focused in that ripe year but no rough edges and silken on the palate. A total treat with grilled ribeyes.

Mark Lipton

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Oswaldo, did you get any sense of how the Baudry might handle age? I have a few bottles of 2010 Baudry Chenin stashed somewhere where that I can't find it, and I wonder when I should stop trying.

Normally I'd say the Baudrys not only handle age well but require it. With this 17 Grézeaux, however, I wouldn't be optimistic because it seemed flawed in a way that I'm not sure time will heal (though some say mouse eventually goes away and brett might be more acceptable/traditional in cab franc).

Hence my appeal should any kind soul have a 17 Grézeaux handy for a second opinion.

The question was about the whites, not the reds like Grézeaux. I haven't had, nor do I see the issues that people report with brett and Baudry wines. They are certainly less bretty than many wines and I've discussed the brett issue with Matthieu who tests the wines for brett. I think a lot of people confuse brett and reduction. Combined with the early, leafy presentation of Grézeaux that may be confused with brett. Another way to deal with brett, even if a wine has it, is to source it from primary sources that move and store it well and then store it well yourself.

I think all the 2017 (there was very little for NC) went to Rue Cler. I don't have a record of bottles in my cellar. I'll check to see if there is an extra at the restaurant and check it out.

Ah, ok, then I can't really answer Ian's question because my mileage with the white Chinon is minimal.

As for confusing reduction with brett, I find that brett is a very specific leathery aroma whereas reductive aromas are several, of which the most prominent might be rotten eggs, matchstick, and (what I call) hair straightener or hairdresser salon (which a 2016 Julien Guillot Cuvée 910 opened last night had in spades). But these three tend to dissipate with vigorous decanting, often with a copper penny, whereas I haven't been successful at dissipating brett with a decanter. I also don't believe brett arises from poor storage and couldn't find anything to suggest that in the chapter on reduction in Jamie Goode's Flawless.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
I just pulled the trigger on a four pack of ‘17 Croix Boissée from today’s Crush offer but haven’t tried the Grezeaux or Guillot. I hope to get it home soon and try it. Then send the other 3 to the cellar for aging.

Looking forward to it given how much this year has generally stymied trying new releases.

Saw that offer and, of course, there's no mention of any flaw. Assuming I am correct about the 17 Grézeaux flaws -- a big assumption -- I'd be surprised if there are flaws in one and none in the other.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Oswaldo, did you get any sense of how the Baudry might handle age? I have a few bottles of 2010 Baudry Chenin stashed somewhere where that I can't find it, and I wonder when I should stop trying.

Normally I'd say the Baudrys not only handle age well but require it. With this 17 Grézeaux, however, I wouldn't be optimistic because it seemed flawed in a way that I'm not sure time will heal (though some say mouse eventually goes away and brett might be more acceptable/traditional in cab franc).

Hence my appeal should any kind soul have a 17 Grézeaux handy for a second opinion.

The question was about the whites, not the reds like Grézeaux. I haven't had, nor do I see the issues that people report with brett and Baudry wines. They are certainly less bretty than many wines and I've discussed the brett issue with Matthieu who tests the wines for brett. I think a lot of people confuse brett and reduction. Combined with the early, leafy presentation of Grézeaux that may be confused with brett. Another way to deal with brett, even if a wine has it, is to source it from primary sources that move and store it well and then store it well yourself.

I think all the 2017 (there was very little for NC) went to Rue Cler. I don't have a record of bottles in my cellar. I'll check to see if there is an extra at the restaurant and check it out.

Ah, ok, then I can't really answer Ian's question because my mileage with the white Chinon is minimal.

As for confusing reduction with brett, I find that brett is a very specific leathery aroma whereas reductive aromas are several, of which the most prominent might be rotten eggs, matchstick, and (what I call) hair straightener or hairdresser salon (which a 2016 Julien Guillot Cuvée 910 opened last night had in spades). But these three tend to dissipate with vigorous decanting, often with a copper penny, whereas I haven't been successful at dissipating brett with a decanter. I also don't believe brett arises from poor storage and couldn't find anything to suggest that in the chapter on reduction in Jamie Goode's Flawless.

Brett is present in many or even all red wines, I think. In many cases, it won't bloom into noticeable amounts in the wine if the wine is kept below 70F it's entire life until consumption. From what I understand, it's also more likely with some cultivars and at higher potential alcohol.

Brett will not dissipate with air. It's either above detection threshold or or not.

When I say you confuse brett and reduction, I mean all people. It takes some time to tease out the difference. I find that cabernet franc tends toward reduction but there may also be brett. In a recent 2012 Grézeaux it started off with those aromas but they were either overwhelmed by the fruit and other notes or it was reduction that blew off.

I just don't like the trope "Baudry wines are bretty" because I think it is a bit lazy and not true.