originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by robert ames:
originally posted by BJ:
I pretty much stopped aging Chablis with premox. Which is sad, 'cause old Chablis is fucking awesome when it's on.
I am pretty sad most producers still oak their premier/GCs somewhat in light of this. That oak can integrate with age...but if you drink at release it's there big time. I wish they'd all just use old oak for everything.
hmmm. . .with louis michel, billaud simon, bernard defaix, fevre domaine, i have never had a prem ox bottle. and that's up to 10 years old.
All of those have had reports of premox but none are domaines I ever cellared. I stopped a long time ago, so I was bitten by Dauvissat and Boudin and really just priced out of Ravenneau (Dauvissat now as well). Picq always worked out for me but maybe I also didn't expect them to age as long so just drank them.
Back in the mid-90s (when you could do such things) I used to hit Chablis every summer and taste with pretty much everyone and then raid the cellars at the Hostellerie des Clos to drink older vintages of Dauvissat and Raveneau. They were some of the best experiences I've ever had with white wine (NB, I was a graduate student at the time and 10-12 year old Raveneau Clos could be had for under $100 US, often well under).
Lucky you did that then. 'Cause now, well, who can afford them. What is odd here in Norway is that though Dauvissat is pretty much unavailable in the retail (Vinmonopolet) market, restaurants have them. The 1er crus I like best, Fôret and Vaillons, are about $110/120 so once in a while . . . But for everyday drinking, we buy a lot of Duplessis (which never gets any love here): petit chablis mostly, but also the 1er crus which cost considerably less than the US.
originally posted by BJ:
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by robert ames:
originally posted by BJ:
I pretty much stopped aging Chablis with premox. Which is sad, 'cause old Chablis is fucking awesome when it's on.
I am pretty sad most producers still oak their premier/GCs somewhat in light of this. That oak can integrate with age...but if you drink at release it's there big time. I wish they'd all just use old oak for everything.
hmmm. . .with louis michel, billaud simon, bernard defaix, fevre domaine, i have never had a prem ox bottle. and that's up to 10 years old.
All of those have had reports of premox but none are domaines I ever cellared. I stopped a long time ago, so I was bitten by Dauvissat and Boudin and really just priced out of Ravenneau (Dauvissat now as well). Picq always worked out for me but maybe I also didn't expect them to age as long so just drank them.
Back in the mid-90s (when you could do such things) I used to hit Chablis every summer and taste with pretty much everyone and then raid the cellars at the Hostellerie des Clos to drink older vintages of Dauvissat and Raveneau. They were some of the best experiences I've ever had with white wine (NB, I was a graduate student at the time and 10-12 year old Raveneau Clos could be had for under $100 US, often well under).
God, that sounds good.
I've been there, once. I should be able to rattle off what Chablis we had from memory, but can't. I do remember we had a 94 de Montille I think Volnay 1er, and it was super on.
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by robert ames:
originally posted by BJ:
I pretty much stopped aging Chablis with premox. Which is sad, 'cause old Chablis is fucking awesome when it's on.
I am pretty sad most producers still oak their premier/GCs somewhat in light of this. That oak can integrate with age...but if you drink at release it's there big time. I wish they'd all just use old oak for everything.
hmmm. . .with louis michel, billaud simon, bernard defaix, fevre domaine, i have never had a prem ox bottle. and that's up to 10 years old.
All of those have had reports of premox but none are domaines I ever cellared. I stopped a long time ago, so I was bitten by Dauvissat and Boudin and really just priced out of Ravenneau (Dauvissat now as well). Picq always worked out for me but maybe I also didn't expect them to age as long so just drank them.
Back in the mid-90s (when you could do such things) I used to hit Chablis every summer and taste with pretty much everyone and then raid the cellars at the Hostellerie des Clos to drink older vintages of Dauvissat and Raveneau. They were some of the best experiences I've ever had with white wine (NB, I was a graduate student at the time and 10-12 year old Raveneau Clos could be had for under $100 US, often well under).
Lucky you did that then. 'Cause now, well, who can afford them. What is odd here in Norway is that though Dauvissat is pretty much unavailable in the retail (Vinmonopolet) market, restaurants have them. The 1er crus I like best, Fôret and Vaillons, are about $110/120 so once in a while . . . But for everyday drinking, we buy a lot of Duplessis (which never gets any love here): petit chablis mostly, but also the 1er crus which cost considerably less than the US.
Yeah, glad I got to do all that. I really haven't been back to Burgundy in a long time. Eric and I went up to visit Mugneret-Gibourg and show off some tijanes at Roulot a few years back, but that's about it. It's all pretty gross now.
Duplessis is really good. I also like Moreau-Naudet in a different style. Picq really scratches my old Dauvissat itch with steely but concentrated wines. Honestly, I don't really miss Dauvissat and Raveneau that much.
originally posted by robert ames:
originally posted by BJ:
I pretty much stopped aging Chablis with premox. Which is sad, 'cause old Chablis is fucking awesome when it's on.
I am pretty sad most producers still oak their premier/GCs somewhat in light of this. That oak can integrate with age...but if you drink at release it's there big time. I wish they'd all just use old oak for everything.
hmmm. . .with louis michel, billaud simon, bernard defaix, fevre domaine, i have never had a prem ox bottle. and that's up to 10 years old.
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
We have a passive-aggressive cellar at my place, FWIW. It pouts when I fail to put new bottles into it, but then, when I do, it hides them from me in obscure crannies for sheer spite.
This week I fed it six bottles of Thivin Zacharie; I’ll probably never see them again.
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
We have a passive-aggressive cellar at my place, FWIW. It pouts when I fail to put new bottles into it, but then, when I do, it hides them from me in obscure crannies for sheer spite.
This week I fed it six bottles of Thivin Zacharie; I’ll probably never see them again.
Apologies to all for my many typos in the original post. Fat fingers on a phone keyboard, in a dark room, with the brightness turned down. D'oh!
originally posted by robert ames:
not sure about the sour mash thing, but i figure that premier cru chablis doesn't perform its magic until a good 7 years after the vintage, and a few more years for grand cru.
and especially with louis michel, as his wines are all satinless-only in their elevage, so are even tighter upon release than those that use old wood.
that being said, 2018 was a particularly blousy vintage for chablis (read neal martin), so i'd expect it to be a vintage with diminished staying power compared to say 2017.
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
originally posted by robert ames:
not sure about the sour mash thing, but i figure that premier cru chablis doesn't perform its magic until a good 7 years after the vintage, and a few more years for grand cru.
and especially with louis michel, as his wines are all satinless-only in their elevage, so are even tighter upon release than those that use old wood.
that being said, 2018 was a particularly blousy vintage for chablis (read neal martin), so i'd expect it to be a vintage with diminished staying power compared to say 2017.
'Creamy' may be the better descriptor, compared to 'mash;' I hadn't thought of it. I think I copied 'sour mash' from Johnson.
I would say the creamier texture amplifies the sensation of sourness already present in typical Chablis acidity.
I've read the 'blowsy' assessment of 2018 for Chablis in general, but professional notes on Michel's wines are favorable, notably by Gilman and Vinous. I wouldn't be surprised if Michel's style of elevage yields wines that 'weather' a warm vintage better than many others in this region. Granted, that's purely speculation.
originally posted by BJ:
I find chicken stock in Chablis quite a bit, esp w age. I love it when it has that slightly animale thing going.
Not sure about that. Chicken stock will be meaty, salty, fatty. Those first two are not bad for a minerally wine with some age on it.originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
originally posted by BJ:
I find chicken stock in Chablis quite a bit, esp w age. I love it when it has that slightly animale thing going.
Homemade chicken stock, or store-bought?
Actually, either way, it seems like a thoroughly unappetizing descriptor for good Chablis. Ick.
Alas. The 1er crus are about $25 less per bottle in Norway (even with all the import and value-added taxes), so I'm guessing the US importer is taking a larger than normal markup. And I've never encountered any premox. I like Picq (and bought it from Cave Taureau), but it isn't sold here.originally posted by Larry Stein:
Much love for Duplessis here. I've never encountered a premox'd bottle although a bottle of '09 Vaillons I opened recently was ever so slightly corked. Unfortunately, the wines are now out of my price range.