Thoughts on Aging Chabils

[BJ]

I also want to acknowledge it's depressing we are talking about Jadot Macon and Trader Joe's wines on WD these days; however, we all need cheap crap, and it introduces a bit of humanity into the whole gig.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

TJ is, I think, still a considerable step up from Jamaican Meat Wine.

Anyway, perhaps it's simple Pandemic Loads of Cheap Crap.

 

[BJ]

Cheap Crap rules! Slummin' it is always ok.

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

There are degrees of TJ. When we have serious discussions about two-buck-chuck, we'll know the gig's up.

 

[Florida Jim]

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
There are degrees of TJ. When we have serious discussions about two-buck-chuck, we'll know the gig's up.

Jadot may carry a bit more weight, yes?
Best, jim

 

[BJ]

My latest case of the '17 badge engineered Brocard is not quite at the level of previous. It might just be transitioning off of its early freshness, or perhaps had a touch of heat in storage somewhere.

Ya just never know.

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

originally posted by Florida Jim:

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
There are degrees of TJ. When we have serious discussions about two-buck-chuck, we'll know the gig's up.

Jadot may carry a bit more weight, yes?
Best, jim

Are you taking the piss, Jim? I can't tell.

 

[Florida Jim]

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:

originally posted by Florida Jim:

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
There are degrees of TJ. When we have serious discussions about two-buck-chuck, we'll know the gig's up.

Jadot may carry a bit more weight, yes?
Best, jim

Are you taking the piss, Jim? I can't tell.

Up your nose with a rubber hose . . . I wave my private parts in your general direction . . . and other such derisive invective.
Best, jim

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

Ah! Thanks.

It’s going to take at least a case of either Jadot Macon or TJ Ste. Claire to unsee that image.

 

[Tristan Welles]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Tristan Welles:
I'm a big fan of Duplessis Les Clos, too. It fills in -- as best anything can -- for Raveneau. I'm able to purchase it at $65-$70, is that seen as too much?

Interesting. I wouldn't compare Duplessis to Raveneau. I think they're closer to Dauvissat if I had to make a comparison.

Raveneau has one quality that haunts me -- that viscous tactility of liquid which seems unavailable in any other wine, except Duplessis Les Clos. There aren't many of these almost-unique, repeating qualities in wine. And when I find them I am drawn to them. One died when Chidaine had to rip up Poniatowski's vineyard. I hope it comes back. Another is the (luxurious) cliche of Mouton's aroma. The best bottles of Cédric Bouchard have something ... which I have not quite defined for myself and the replicability of which I am not quite certain.

At any rate, that is the reason for my comparison. I do agree with you that wine making might be more similar to Dauvissat. When initially trying to get past the reduction of Dauvissat or Duplessis perhaps one is tugged into twinning the two.

Now I find myself wondering if the chais chez Duplessis and Raveneau share a strand of native yeast. But this is fanciful.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Tristan Welles:
Now I find myself wondering if the chais chez Duplessis and Raveneau share a strand of native yeast. But this is fanciful.

Poniatowski's caves were famous for their various colorful shaggy growths.

 

[robert ames]

originally posted by Tristan Welles:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Tristan Welles:
I'm a big fan of Duplessis Les Clos, too. It fills in -- as best anything can -- for Raveneau. I'm able to purchase it at $65-$70, is that seen as too much?

Interesting. I wouldn't compare Duplessis to Raveneau. I think they're closer to Dauvissat if I had to make a comparison.

Raveneau has one quality that haunts me -- that viscous tactility of liquid which seems unavailable in any other wine, except Duplessis Les Clos. There aren't many of these almost-unique, repeating qualities in wine. And when I find them I am drawn to them. One died when Chidaine had to rip up Poniatowski's vineyard. I hope it comes back. Another is the (luxurious) cliche of Mouton's aroma. The best bottles of Cédric Bouchard have something ... which I have not quite defined for myself and the replicability of which I am not quite certain.

At any rate, that is the reason for my comparison. I do agree with you that wine making might be more similar to Dauvissat. When initially trying to get past the reduction of Dauvissat or Duplessis perhaps one is tugged into twinning the two.

Now I find myself wondering if the chais chez Duplessis and Raveneau share a strand of native yeast. But this is fanciful.

chidaine ripped out clos boudin? i had not heard that. i did read that it was in sad neglect and disrepair when chidaine got it, but not that it was time for starting over.

 

[Tristan Welles]

originally posted by robert ames:

originally posted by Tristan Welles:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Tristan Welles:
I'm a big fan of Duplessis Les Clos, too. It fills in -- as best anything can -- for Raveneau. I'm able to purchase it at $65-$70, is that seen as too much?

Interesting. I wouldn't compare Duplessis to Raveneau. I think they're closer to Dauvissat if I had to make a comparison.

Raveneau has one quality that haunts me -- that viscous tactility of liquid which seems unavailable in any other wine, except Duplessis Les Clos. There aren't many of these almost-unique, repeating qualities in wine. And when I find them I am drawn to them. One died when Chidaine had to rip up Poniatowski's vineyard. I hope it comes back. Another is the (luxurious) cliche of Mouton's aroma. The best bottles of Cédric Bouchard have something ... which I have not quite defined for myself and the replicability of which I am not quite certain.

At any rate, that is the reason for my comparison. I do agree with you that wine making might be more similar to Dauvissat. When initially trying to get past the reduction of Dauvissat or Duplessis perhaps one is tugged into twinning the two.

Now I find myself wondering if the chais chez Duplessis and Raveneau share a strand of native yeast. But this is fanciful.

chidaine ripped out clos boudin? i had not heard that. i did read that it was in sad neglect and disrepair when chidaine got it, but not that it was time for starting over.

From the Polaner website:

"Clos Baudoin (Vouvray vines) - The 2.7-hectare south-facing Clos Baudoin is one of Vouvray’s legendary sites. It had previously belonged to the Prince Poniatowski, but Chidaine had rented the vines since 2002, and has owned the plot outright since the end of 2006. There are vines up to 60 years old here, but unfortunately the entire vineyard will have to be replanted due to a virus in the soil, and Chidaine has already pulled up one hectare of vines. The small amount of wine that he does make from the rest of the Clos Baudoin is sleek and fine, with noticeably more complexity and dimension than his other Vouvrays. It’s always a dry wine, as he thinks this vineyard excels at classic Vouvray sec."

I believe that note is now a few years old, and almost none of the old vines remain.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Tristan Welles:

originally posted by robert ames:

originally posted by Tristan Welles:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Tristan Welles:
I'm a big fan of Duplessis Les Clos, too. It fills in -- as best anything can -- for Raveneau. I'm able to purchase it at $65-$70, is that seen as too much?

Interesting. I wouldn't compare Duplessis to Raveneau. I think they're closer to Dauvissat if I had to make a comparison.

Raveneau has one quality that haunts me -- that viscous tactility of liquid which seems unavailable in any other wine, except Duplessis Les Clos. There aren't many of these almost-unique, repeating qualities in wine. And when I find them I am drawn to them. One died when Chidaine had to rip up Poniatowski's vineyard. I hope it comes back. Another is the (luxurious) cliche of Mouton's aroma. The best bottles of Cédric Bouchard have something ... which I have not quite defined for myself and the replicability of which I am not quite certain.

At any rate, that is the reason for my comparison. I do agree with you that wine making might be more similar to Dauvissat. When initially trying to get past the reduction of Dauvissat or Duplessis perhaps one is tugged into twinning the two.

Now I find myself wondering if the chais chez Duplessis and Raveneau share a strand of native yeast. But this is fanciful.

the entire vineyard will have to be replanted due to a virus in the soil

That does not sound quite right. Most grapevine viruses are spread by using infected plant materials or at the graft. Perhaps they mean a nematode-borne virus, such as Fanleaf.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Tristan Welles:

originally posted by robert ames:

originally posted by Tristan Welles:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Tristan Welles:
I'm a big fan of Duplessis Les Clos, too. It fills in -- as best anything can -- for Raveneau. I'm able to purchase it at $65-$70, is that seen as too much?

Interesting. I wouldn't compare Duplessis to Raveneau. I think they're closer to Dauvissat if I had to make a comparison.

Raveneau has one quality that haunts me -- that viscous tactility of liquid which seems unavailable in any other wine, except Duplessis Les Clos. There aren't many of these almost-unique, repeating qualities in wine. And when I find them I am drawn to them. One died when Chidaine had to rip up Poniatowski's vineyard. I hope it comes back. Another is the (luxurious) cliche of Mouton's aroma. The best bottles of Cédric Bouchard have something ... which I have not quite defined for myself and the replicability of which I am not quite certain.

At any rate, that is the reason for my comparison. I do agree with you that wine making might be more similar to Dauvissat. When initially trying to get past the reduction of Dauvissat or Duplessis perhaps one is tugged into twinning the two.

Now I find myself wondering if the chais chez Duplessis and Raveneau share a strand of native yeast. But this is fanciful.

chidaine ripped out clos boudin? i had not heard that. i did read that it was in sad neglect and disrepair when chidaine got it, but not that it was time for starting over.

From the Polaner website:

"Clos Baudoin (Vouvray vines) - The 2.7-hectare south-facing Clos Baudoin is one of Vouvray’s legendary sites. It had previously belonged to the Prince Poniatowski, but Chidaine had rented the vines since 2002, and has owned the plot outright since the end of 2006. There are vines up to 60 years old here, but unfortunately the entire vineyard will have to be replanted due to a virus in the soil, and Chidaine has already pulled up one hectare of vines. The small amount of wine that he does make from the rest of the Clos Baudoin is sleek and fine, with noticeably more complexity and dimension than his other Vouvrays. It’s always a dry wine, as he thinks this vineyard excels at classic Vouvray sec."

I believe that note is now a few years old, and almost none of the old vines remain.

Interesting. Just checked and for the 2018 vintage the Baudoin still commands a premium over Chidaine's other Vouvrays. I wonder if this is exclusively "for old times' sake," a kind of built-in "price memory" not justified by the new and much lower average vine age, or can be attributed to what remains a superior terroir.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Tristan Welles:

originally posted by robert ames:

originally posted by Tristan Welles:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Tristan Welles:
I'm a big fan of Duplessis Les Clos, too. It fills in -- as best anything can -- for Raveneau. I'm able to purchase it at $65-$70, is that seen as too much?

Interesting. I wouldn't compare Duplessis to Raveneau. I think they're closer to Dauvissat if I had to make a comparison.

Raveneau has one quality that haunts me -- that viscous tactility of liquid which seems unavailable in any other wine, except Duplessis Les Clos. There aren't many of these almost-unique, repeating qualities in wine. And when I find them I am drawn to them. One died when Chidaine had to rip up Poniatowski's vineyard. I hope it comes back. Another is the (luxurious) cliche of Mouton's aroma. The best bottles of Cédric Bouchard have something ... which I have not quite defined for myself and the replicability of which I am not quite certain.

At any rate, that is the reason for my comparison. I do agree with you that wine making might be more similar to Dauvissat. When initially trying to get past the reduction of Dauvissat or Duplessis perhaps one is tugged into twinning the two.

Now I find myself wondering if the chais chez Duplessis and Raveneau share a strand of native yeast. But this is fanciful.

chidaine ripped out clos boudin? i had not heard that. i did read that it was in sad neglect and disrepair when chidaine got it, but not that it was time for starting over.

From the Polaner website:

"Clos Baudoin (Vouvray vines) - The 2.7-hectare south-facing Clos Baudoin is one of Vouvray’s legendary sites. It had previously belonged to the Prince Poniatowski, but Chidaine had rented the vines since 2002, and has owned the plot outright since the end of 2006. There are vines up to 60 years old here, but unfortunately the entire vineyard will have to be replanted due to a virus in the soil, and Chidaine has already pulled up one hectare of vines. The small amount of wine that he does make from the rest of the Clos Baudoin is sleek and fine, with noticeably more complexity and dimension than his other Vouvrays. It’s always a dry wine, as he thinks this vineyard excels at classic Vouvray sec."

I believe that note is now a few years old, and almost none of the old vines remain.

Interesting. Just checked and for the 2018 vintage the Baudoin still commands a premium over Chidaine's other Vouvrays. I wonder if this is exclusively "for old times' sake," a kind of built-in "price memory" not justified by the new and much lower average vine age, or can be attributed to what remains a superior terroir.

Terroir is more important than* old vines, always, and Clos Baudoin has long been considered one of the crown jewels of Vouvray.

* I was going to use "t****s" here but reading the word on the screen made me physically ill.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Tristan Welles:

originally posted by robert ames:

originally posted by Tristan Welles:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Tristan Welles:
I'm a big fan of Duplessis Les Clos, too. It fills in -- as best anything can -- for Raveneau. I'm able to purchase it at $65-$70, is that seen as too much?

Interesting. I wouldn't compare Duplessis to Raveneau. I think they're closer to Dauvissat if I had to make a comparison.

Raveneau has one quality that haunts me -- that viscous tactility of liquid which seems unavailable in any other wine, except Duplessis Les Clos. There aren't many of these almost-unique, repeating qualities in wine. And when I find them I am drawn to them. One died when Chidaine had to rip up Poniatowski's vineyard. I hope it comes back. Another is the (luxurious) cliche of Mouton's aroma. The best bottles of Cédric Bouchard have something ... which I have not quite defined for myself and the replicability of which I am not quite certain.

At any rate, that is the reason for my comparison. I do agree with you that wine making might be more similar to Dauvissat. When initially trying to get past the reduction of Dauvissat or Duplessis perhaps one is tugged into twinning the two.

Now I find myself wondering if the chais chez Duplessis and Raveneau share a strand of native yeast. But this is fanciful.

the entire vineyard will have to be replanted due to a virus in the soil

That does not sound quite right. Most grapevine viruses are spread by using infected plant materials or at the graft. Perhaps they mean a nematode-borne virus, such as Fanleaf.

Can't comment on the disease but I remember Francois talking about how derelict the vineyard was. It's good luck for the rest of us that he was able to buy it as he is a very conscientious vigneron.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by VLM:

* I was going to use "t****s" here but reading the word on the screen made me physically ill.

Ha!

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Tristan Welles:

originally posted by robert ames:

originally posted by Tristan Welles:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Tristan Welles:
I'm a big fan of Duplessis Les Clos, too. It fills in -- as best anything can -- for Raveneau. I'm able to purchase it at $65-$70, is that seen as too much?

Interesting. I wouldn't compare Duplessis to Raveneau. I think they're closer to Dauvissat if I had to make a comparison.

Raveneau has one quality that haunts me -- that viscous tactility of liquid which seems unavailable in any other wine, except Duplessis Les Clos. There aren't many of these almost-unique, repeating qualities in wine. And when I find them I am drawn to them. One died when Chidaine had to rip up Poniatowski's vineyard. I hope it comes back. Another is the (luxurious) cliche of Mouton's aroma. The best bottles of Cédric Bouchard have something ... which I have not quite defined for myself and the replicability of which I am not quite certain.

At any rate, that is the reason for my comparison. I do agree with you that wine making might be more similar to Dauvissat. When initially trying to get past the reduction of Dauvissat or Duplessis perhaps one is tugged into twinning the two.

Now I find myself wondering if the chais chez Duplessis and Raveneau share a strand of native yeast. But this is fanciful.

chidaine ripped out clos boudin? i had not heard that. i did read that it was in sad neglect and disrepair when chidaine got it, but not that it was time for starting over.

From the Polaner website:

"Clos Baudoin (Vouvray vines) - The 2.7-hectare south-facing Clos Baudoin is one of Vouvray’s legendary sites. It had previously belonged to the Prince Poniatowski, but Chidaine had rented the vines since 2002, and has owned the plot outright since the end of 2006. There are vines up to 60 years old here, but unfortunately the entire vineyard will have to be replanted due to a virus in the soil, and Chidaine has already pulled up one hectare of vines. The small amount of wine that he does make from the rest of the Clos Baudoin is sleek and fine, with noticeably more complexity and dimension than his other Vouvrays. It’s always a dry wine, as he thinks this vineyard excels at classic Vouvray sec."

I believe that note is now a few years old, and almost none of the old vines remain.

Interesting. Just checked and for the 2018 vintage the Baudoin still commands a premium over Chidaine's other Vouvrays. I wonder if this is exclusively "for old times' sake," a kind of built-in "price memory" not justified by the new and much lower average vine age, or can be attributed to what remains a superior terroir.

Terroir is more important than* old vines, always, and Clos Baudoin has long been considered one of the crown jewels of Vouvray.

* I was going to use "t****s" here but reading the word on the screen made me physically ill.

That took me a moment to get.

Sympathies,
Mark Lipton

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Tristan Welles:

originally posted by robert ames:

originally posted by Tristan Welles:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Tristan Welles:
I'm a big fan of Duplessis Les Clos, too. It fills in -- as best anything can -- for Raveneau. I'm able to purchase it at $65-$70, is that seen as too much?

Interesting. I wouldn't compare Duplessis to Raveneau. I think they're closer to Dauvissat if I had to make a comparison.

Raveneau has one quality that haunts me -- that viscous tactility of liquid which seems unavailable in any other wine, except Duplessis Les Clos. There aren't many of these almost-unique, repeating qualities in wine. And when I find them I am drawn to them. One died when Chidaine had to rip up Poniatowski's vineyard. I hope it comes back. Another is the (luxurious) cliche of Mouton's aroma. The best bottles of Cédric Bouchard have something ... which I have not quite defined for myself and the replicability of which I am not quite certain.

At any rate, that is the reason for my comparison. I do agree with you that wine making might be more similar to Dauvissat. When initially trying to get past the reduction of Dauvissat or Duplessis perhaps one is tugged into twinning the two.

Now I find myself wondering if the chais chez Duplessis and Raveneau share a strand of native yeast. But this is fanciful.

chidaine ripped out clos boudin? i had not heard that. i did read that it was in sad neglect and disrepair when chidaine got it, but not that it was time for starting over.

From the Polaner website:

"Clos Baudoin (Vouvray vines) - The 2.7-hectare south-facing Clos Baudoin is one of Vouvray’s legendary sites. It had previously belonged to the Prince Poniatowski, but Chidaine had rented the vines since 2002, and has owned the plot outright since the end of 2006. There are vines up to 60 years old here, but unfortunately the entire vineyard will have to be replanted due to a virus in the soil, and Chidaine has already pulled up one hectare of vines. The small amount of wine that he does make from the rest of the Clos Baudoin is sleek and fine, with noticeably more complexity and dimension than his other Vouvrays. It’s always a dry wine, as he thinks this vineyard excels at classic Vouvray sec."

I believe that note is now a few years old, and almost none of the old vines remain.

Interesting. Just checked and for the 2018 vintage the Baudoin still commands a premium over Chidaine's other Vouvrays. I wonder if this is exclusively "for old times' sake," a kind of built-in "price memory" not justified by the new and much lower average vine age, or can be attributed to what remains a superior terroir.

Terroir is more important than* old vines, always, and Clos Baudoin has long been considered one of the crown jewels of Vouvray.

* I was going to use "t****s" here but reading the word on the screen made me physically ill.

In this case I like the idea that it's beauty before age, or that beauty t****s age.