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TN: The Virtual Tasting #8 (December 3, 2020)
- Thread starter Jeff Grossman
- Start date
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
I used OCR to get the basic text, and hand-adjusted it. Then I ran it through Ooglegay automatic. All of which is to say, I'd appreciate it to know what else isn't right (and how far wrong it is, or if there is assumed knowledge that I likely don't have).originally posted by mark e:
There are a few more things in the translation that are wrong, but they don't change the meaning much.
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
I used OCR to get the basic text, and hand-adjusted it. Then I ran it through Ooglegay automatic. All of which is to say, I'd appreciate it to know what else isn't right (and how far wrong it is, or if there is assumed knowledge that I likely don't have).originally posted by mark e:
There are a few more things in the translation that are wrong, but they don't change the meaning much.
Here you go:
1. Questo vino è prodotto con scelta qualite di uva is translated as “This wine is produced with a choice of Nebiolo grapes.” Replace “a choice of” with selected.
2. in vigneti di rara e particolara esposizione is translated as “in vineyards of rare and particular exposure” which is quite literal. I believe here they are referring to a particularly favorable aspect (orientation) of the vineyard.
3. 400-500 metri s.l.u. (should be slm = sul livello di mare)
4. La fermentazione sotto stecca del mosta (should be mosto) is translated as “The fermentation under stick.” Should be “submerged-cap fermentation.”
5. Alla temperature di di 12-14 G.c. is translated as at a temperature of 12-14 G.c. (“G.c.” means gradi centigradi or Celsius). Should be "12-14 deg C or °C."
6. In posizione coricata is translated as “in a recumbent position.” Never heard this in English referring to bottles. Usually “storing the bottles on their sides."
7. facendole ruotare di un terzo di giro is translated as “making them rotate a third of a turn.” Should simply be “rotating them a third of a turn.”
8. la produzione fatta secondo le tradizionali regale di cantina is translated as “the production made according to the traditional royal cellars.” Problem is the word “regale” should be “regole.” Therefore, this refers to traditional methods, not to royalty.
I have a general question about all these old Nebbiolo that keep washing up on our shores the last decade or so. I have no reason to doubt Jamie or his deep connections to the Piedmont but given the frequency and scale of known counterfeit operations in Italy how confident are we in all these old wines floating around? Where are they all coming from? Are there that many deep cellars of Nebbiolo? Like most of you, I've had a lot of good to great bottles and normal disappointments but also very strange bottles.
Anyway, just curious.
Anyway, just curious.
originally posted by VLM:
I have a general question about all these old Nebbiolo that keep washing up on our shores the last decade or so. I have no reason to doubt Jamie or his deep connections to the Piedmont but given the frequency and scale of known counterfeit operations in Italy how confident are we in all these old wines floating around? Where are they all coming from? Are there that many deep cellars of Nebbiolo? Like most of you, I've had a lot of good to great bottles and normal disappointments but also very strange bottles.
Anyway, just curious.
Yeah, I question that too. Though why Alto Piemonte from the '50s? Nonetheless, I would skip them based on my experience tasting wines from the '50s in the '70s, which in other threads I have described as somewhat oxidized and brutally tannic. Like you, I'd put my money into 21st-century Alto wines after the renovation of the vineyards, replanting and good winemaking practices. Just think that by the '80s there were probably only about 10 ha. of producing vineyards in Boca, as so many people had abandoned their land to work in mills and factories.
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by VLM:
I have a general question about all these old Nebbiolo that keep washing up on our shores the last decade or so. I have no reason to doubt Jamie or his deep connections to the Piedmont but given the frequency and scale of known counterfeit operations in Italy how confident are we in all these old wines floating around? Where are they all coming from? Are there that many deep cellars of Nebbiolo? Like most of you, I've had a lot of good to great bottles and normal disappointments but also very strange bottles.
Anyway, just curious.
Yeah, I question that too. Though why Alto Piemonte from the '50s? Nonetheless, I would skip them based on my experience tasting wines from the '50s in the '70s, which in other threads I have described as somewhat oxidized and brutally tannic. Like you, I'd put my money into 21st-century Alto wines after the renovation of the vineyards, replanting and good winemaking practices. Just think that by the '80s there were probably only about 10 ha. of producing vineyards in Boca, as so many people had abandoned their land to work in mills and factories.
I had pretty good 1970 and 1971 Antoniolo Gattinaras back in July that were both very good. They weren't thrilling. We were celebrating a good friends birthday and so we opened one bottles from his birthyear and mine so it was more about the comfort in finding it drinkable and pleasant.
When we went in 2018, Cristiano Garella drove us around the property at Le Pianelle and showed us the vineyards that had been reclaimed by woods. It was really wild to see grapevines growing in the forest.
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by VLM:
I have a general question about all these old Nebbiolo that keep washing up on our shores the last decade or so. I have no reason to doubt Jamie or his deep connections to the Piedmont but given the frequency and scale of known counterfeit operations in Italy how confident are we in all these old wines floating around? Where are they all coming from? Are there that many deep cellars of Nebbiolo? Like most of you, I've had a lot of good to great bottles and normal disappointments but also very strange bottles.
Anyway, just curious.
Yeah, I question that too. Though why Alto Piemonte from the '50s? Nonetheless, I would skip them based on my experience tasting wines from the '50s in the '70s, which in other threads I have described as somewhat oxidized and brutally tannic. Like you, I'd put my money into 21st-century Alto wines after the renovation of the vineyards, replanting and good winemaking practices. Just think that by the '80s there were probably only about 10 ha. of producing vineyards in Boca, as so many people had abandoned their land to work in mills and factories.
When we went in 2018, Cristiano Garella drove us around the property at Le Pianelle and showed us the vineyards that had been reclaimed by woods. It was really wild to see grapevines growing in the forest.
Not sure if you saw the traditional training system "A Maggiorina," which is pretty crazy (and once part of promiscuous plantings with trees as in Tuscany), though I'm not sure how much is left of it now.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
Thanks!originally posted by mark e:
Here you go:
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by VLM:
I have a general question about all these old Nebbiolo that keep washing up on our shores the last decade or so. I have no reason to doubt Jamie or his deep connections to the Piedmont but given the frequency and scale of known counterfeit operations in Italy how confident are we in all these old wines floating around? Where are they all coming from? Are there that many deep cellars of Nebbiolo? Like most of you, I've had a lot of good to great bottles and normal disappointments but also very strange bottles.
Anyway, just curious.
Yeah, I question that too. Though why Alto Piemonte from the '50s? Nonetheless, I would skip them based on my experience tasting wines from the '50s in the '70s, which in other threads I have described as somewhat oxidized and brutally tannic. Like you, I'd put my money into 21st-century Alto wines after the renovation of the vineyards, replanting and good winemaking practices. Just think that by the '80s there were probably only about 10 ha. of producing vineyards in Boca, as so many people had abandoned their land to work in mills and factories.
When we went in 2018, Cristiano Garella drove us around the property at Le Pianelle and showed us the vineyards that had been reclaimed by woods. It was really wild to see grapevines growing in the forest.
Not sure if you saw the traditional training system "A Maggiorina," which is pretty crazy (and once part of promiscuous plantings with trees as in Tuscany), though I'm not sure how much is left of it now.
I did! A couple of folks are planting new parcels that way. Platinetti Guido have a parcel of old vines trained Maggiorina (Le Piane too, I believe, but I didn't see those). They are even different varieties. They use it for a blend called "Guido" to honor their grandfather. It's a fun, simple, delicious wine. I haven't seen it in the states.
Larry Stein
Larry Stein
originally posted by VLM:
I have a general question about all these old Nebbiolo that keep washing up on our shores the last decade or so. I have no reason to doubt Jamie or his deep connections to the Piedmont but given the frequency and scale of known counterfeit operations in Italy how confident are we in all these old wines floating around? Where are they all coming from? Are there that many deep cellars of Nebbiolo? Like most of you, I've had a lot of good to great bottles and normal disappointments but also very strange bottles.
Anyway, just curious.
In 2019, friends of mine did a white truffle dinner at their home (there were similar dinners in previous years, but we brought wine from our cellars). They have a home near Donato in Italy as well as one in the Bay Area. She's Italian and both are accomplished cooks.
3 of us, including one of the hosts, sourced Barolo and Barbaresco from Chambers. He called and gave them a budget. Other than one wine from Fontanafredda, these were producers that I was unfamiliar with. Vintages ranged from 1961 through 1978. Our budget did not allow for Bartolo Mascarello and the like, that is big names with big per bottle prices. The wines were stood up for a week and decanted 4-5 hours before the meal. They all performed as I would expect from old Nebbiolo. There wasn't a dog in the bunch.
This is only one data point (5 bottles, 5 data points?). You can take that FWIW.
Jeff Grossman
Jeff Grossman
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by VLM:
I have a general question about all these old Nebbiolo that keep washing up on our shores the last decade or so. I have no reason to doubt Jamie or his deep connections to the Piedmont but given the frequency and scale of known counterfeit operations in Italy how confident are we in all these old wines floating around? Where are they all coming from? Are there that many deep cellars of Nebbiolo? Like most of you, I've had a lot of good to great bottles and normal disappointments but also very strange bottles.
Anyway, just curious.
Yeah, I question that too. Though why Alto Piemonte from the '50s? Nonetheless, I would skip them based on my experience tasting wines from the '50s in the '70s, which in other threads I have described as somewhat oxidized and brutally tannic. Like you, I'd put my money into 21st-century Alto wines after the renovation of the vineyards, replanting and good winemaking practices. Just think that by the '80s there were probably only about 10 ha. of producing vineyards in Boca, as so many people had abandoned their land to work in mills and factories.
IANJW. As I understand it, there are people on the ground buying up old restaurant cellars. Hence the short amounts and few marquee names (those were sellable!).
Quality is, of course, variable. Some of it was meh in the first place, some of it is simply old corks. I have had all of great, so-so, bleh from these offerings.
If Langhe, and if there is time, I drag out Masnaghetti's maps and try to find the old vineyards. Exposure of the vineyard, and its neighbors, may hint at quality. Otherwise, it's a Google search. Or something more Runyonesque.
originally posted by mark e:
6. In posizione coricata is translated as “in a recumbent position.” Never heard this in English referring to bottles.
I'm recumbent every night...
originally posted by VLM:
I have a general question about all these old Nebbiolo that keep washing up on our shores the last decade or so. I have no reason to doubt Jamie or his deep connections to the Piedmont but given the frequency and scale of known counterfeit operations in Italy how confident are we in all these old wines floating around? Where are they all coming from? Are there that many deep cellars of Nebbiolo? Like most of you, I've had a lot of good to great bottles and normal disappointments but also very strange bottles.
Anyway, just curious.
Could be, but nebbiolo probably had more sellers than buyers, and shitloads of wine just piled up. If you have a cave dug in the 19th century, that is some cheap storage space for those shitloads until a willing buyer comes a-knocking. My take on all this old nebbiolo wine becoming "liberated". Just look how much Bordeaux is sheltered. Or Caves São João and their massive cellar. Tons of old wines that never saw the light of day or cesium-137.
Jayson Cohen
Jayson Cohen
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by VLM:
I have a general question about all these old Nebbiolo that keep washing up on our shores the last decade or so. I have no reason to doubt Jamie or his deep connections to the Piedmont but given the frequency and scale of known counterfeit operations in Italy how confident are we in all these old wines floating around? Where are they all coming from? Are there that many deep cellars of Nebbiolo? Like most of you, I've had a lot of good to great bottles and normal disappointments but also very strange bottles.
Anyway, just curious.
Yeah, I question that too. Though why Alto Piemonte from the '50s? Nonetheless, I would skip them based on my experience tasting wines from the '50s in the '70s, which in other threads I have described as somewhat oxidized and brutally tannic. Like you, I'd put my money into 21st-century Alto wines after the renovation of the vineyards, replanting and good winemaking practices. Just think that by the '80s there were probably only about 10 ha. of producing vineyards in Boca, as so many people had abandoned their land to work in mills and factories.
I agree with this. And honestly the track record for me on the older Nebbiolo sold through CSW, whether I bought them or someone else, isn’t great. I stopped although I have a couple on deck still from 64 and 71.
Jay Miller
Jay Miller
Personally I thought this bottle (and the 1958 Ira opened 2 years ago in Chelsea) showed beautifully.
Jayson Cohen
Jayson Cohen
originally posted by Jay Miller:
Personally I thought this bottle (and the 1958 Ira opened 2 years ago in Chelsea) showed beautifully.
Yes. Yours was even good a couple days later.
Jim Hanlon
Jim Hanlon
originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by VLM:
I have a general question about all these old Nebbiolo that keep washing up on our shores the last decade or so. I have no reason to doubt Jamie or his deep connections to the Piedmont but given the frequency and scale of known counterfeit operations in Italy how confident are we in all these old wines floating around? Where are they all coming from? Are there that many deep cellars of Nebbiolo? Like most of you, I've had a lot of good to great bottles and normal disappointments but also very strange bottles.
Anyway, just curious.
Yeah, I question that too. Though why Alto Piemonte from the '50s? Nonetheless, I would skip them based on my experience tasting wines from the '50s in the '70s, which in other threads I have described as somewhat oxidized and brutally tannic. Like you, I'd put my money into 21st-century Alto wines after the renovation of the vineyards, replanting and good winemaking practices. Just think that by the '80s there were probably only about 10 ha. of producing vineyards in Boca, as so many people had abandoned their land to work in mills and factories.
I agree with this. And honestly the track record for me on the older Nebbiolo sold through CSW, whether I bought them or someone else, isn’t great. I stopped although I have a couple on deck still from 64 and 71.
I've probably opened about 50 bottles of older Piemonte from CSW over the years, maybe more. If handled properly, the wines generally show very well. We've done many memorable truffle dinners over the years. I'd be VERY surprised if any of these have been fakes. The labels usually seem to be genuinely old, and some of the bottles have hanging tags and other period marketing attached. In my experience Vallana has generally shown better than Antoniolo, which still can be very good. And the Produttori di Carema wines are often memorable, sometimes even when poured next to Ferrando. I don't buy the heavy hitter bottles priced at $300+.
Cole Kendall
Cole Kendall
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by VLM:
I have a general question about all these old Nebbiolo that keep washing up on our shores the last decade or so. I have no reason to doubt Jamie or his deep connections to the Piedmont but given the frequency and scale of known counterfeit operations in Italy how confident are we in all these old wines floating around? Where are they all coming from? Are there that many deep cellars of Nebbiolo? Like most of you, I've had a lot of good to great bottles and normal disappointments but also very strange bottles.
Anyway, just curious.
Yeah, I question that too. Though why Alto Piemonte from the '50s? Nonetheless, I would skip them based on my experience tasting wines from the '50s in the '70s, which in other threads I have described as somewhat oxidized and brutally tannic. Like you, I'd put my money into 21st-century Alto wines after the renovation of the vineyards, replanting and good winemaking practices. Just think that by the '80s there were probably only about 10 ha. of producing vineyards in Boca, as so many people had abandoned their land to work in mills and factories.
IANJW. As I understand it, there are people on the ground buying up old restaurant cellars. Hence the short amounts and few marquee names (those were sellable!).
Quality is, of course, variable. Some of it was meh in the first place, some of it is simply old corks. I have had all of great, so-so, bleh from these offerings.
If Langhe, and if there is time, I drag out Masnaghetti's maps and try to find the old vineyards. Exposure of the vineyard, and its neighbors, may hint at quality. Otherwise, it's a Google search. Or something more Runyonesque.
I am not anyone but I have a friend in Bergamo who knows a guy who sells a lot of old wine to places like CSW (mostly to CSW if I remember correctly). The guy is a "cellar hunter" and it is evidently not an unusual occurence for elderly Italians to have some weird old bottles in the cellar and have kids who have no interest.
I have a friend from Liguria and her father's cantina has hundreds of bottles that he buys from local plonk producers and a few dozen bottles from the 50s that have sat there. I am quite sure they will never drink the older bottles and someday they will be sold off; storage is a northern Italian basement (not temperature controlled, but probably not hugely hot even in the summer) but nothing that I would gamble serious money on. I assume the Chambers bottles come from similar sources, perhaps from people whose parents bought better wines back in the day. My friend enjoys wine but has zero interest in older stuff.