CWD: What did you drink last night (or whenever)?

[Mark Anisman]

original NFL you tube video that the gentleman was reacting to.
7 was the game we were at. mind boggling.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
14, 5, 4, 2:

I don't watch football anymore, but as a kid I enjoyed Sanders, brought back memories. 3 and 1 pretty sick as well!

I picked a few that I imagined epitomized Mark’s description of crazy reverses of direction. Honestly I watched a lot of Lions games during Barry’s career, and he did crazy reverse direction moves that no one else I have seen has ever been able to do all the time and almost by rote.

Mel Farr, who coincidentally also became a Lions running back, used to do moves like that when he was at UCLA in the mid-1960s.

 

[Jayson Cohen]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
14, 5, 4, 2:

I don't watch football anymore, but as a kid I enjoyed Sanders, brought back memories. 3 and 1 pretty sick as well!

I picked a few that I imagined epitomized Mark’s description of crazy reverses of direction. Honestly I watched a lot of Lions games during Barry’s career, and he did crazy reverse direction moves that no one else I have seen has ever been able to do all the time and almost by rote.

Mel Farr, who coincidentally also became a Lions running back, used to do moves like that when he was at UCLA in the mid-1960s.

Mel Farr played before my time. But he was a Detroit Celeb and his kids went to my high school. We bought a car from his Ford dealership once, what became my first car actually. Mel Farr, Superstar. He wore a full-on cape and did Superman-style flying in his dealership commercials.

 

[Ken Schramm]

As a (now recovered) Lions Fan during the 60's, 70's and 80's, I faithfully watched Farr, Billy Simms and Barry. Farr and Simms were great running backs. Barry was otherworldly. I was stunned when he retired; he could have easily played three or four more years, and would have smashed Sweetness' records. He was far and away the greatest running back I have ever seen. Now, I am glad Barry retired when he did, and can only hope he does not end up with CTE issues. The franchise rode his talent to profitability, and never provided him the support in the passing game, defensive line and the secondary they needed to win a Super Bowl. That was tragic.

 

[Ian Fitzsimmons]

Well, there's always the Pistons.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
So the question now is, does anyone know white wines made from other grapes that undergo malolactic and taste buttery.

Yes. I have had a few German rieslings that went through malo with some buttery character. It is pretty uncommon, though.

That's enough to at least weaken Oswaldo's theory. How many Germans rieslings see any malo, though, I wonder. If Oswaldo can find a Chardonnay that he knows not to have gone through Malo and still tastes buttery, though, that surely would indicate that something about the grape might be at play. For obvious reasons, the tasters to whom it does or does not taste buttery could not be either Oswaldo or me.

I remember Jo Pithon saying that old vine Chenin produces less malic so that wines made from such grapes may not undergo malo (essentially because there's not enough food for the bacteria). I have some bottles of 2014 Valette Macon-Chaintré Vieilles Vignes and the two notes I have (from 2020 and 2021) mention thickness but not butteriness. Even though I am one of the two proscribed tasters, I will try to open another one this weekend and pay special attention to the butteriness content. If I don't find any, it will be another point in favor of the malo camp.

So, during the holidays I opened the old vine Valette mentioned above and also tasted two other young vine Chardonnays from different parts of South America.

The 2014 Valette Macon Chaintré had only a touch of butteriness. Assuming this had low malic to start with, and therefore low lactic to end with, this could be an observation in favor of the lactic explanation (i.e., low malic from old vines generated low lactic).

Second, an entry-level Chardonnay from the huge Montes winery in Chile had, to my surprise, no butteriness at all (2022 Montes Estate D.O. Valle Central Chardonnay 14,0%). The malo was probably blocked here, so this could be one more point for the lactic explanation (i.e., whatever malic there was remained malic, resulting in little or no lactic).

Finally, a natural Chardonnay from the south of Brazil (2021 Vanessa Medin Despertar da Memória Chardonnay Vale dos Vinhedos 12.0%) also had no butteriness. Here I am fairly certain that malo was not blocked, so any young vine malic would have been converted to lactic. While this could be taken as going against the lactic explanation, the bigger conclusion would have to be that my initial hunch that butteriness was intrinsic to Chardonnay cannot be correct, at least not across the globe.

 

[Lee Short]

Had the 2000 CRB Cabernet with ribeye and roasted cauliflower. Just a lovely showing. Last bottle was well on the downslope, but not this bottle. Maybe I’ve got one more ???

 

[Jeff Grossman]

Interesting results, O.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

I got some flak recently for being against the deliberate blocking of malo and for wanting to avoid wines from producers who do this, including those from Champagne, even though Champagne is probably the most constructed wine there is. And not just recently. I remember, semi-fondly, my extremely dear friend Sharon, a Champagne expert, giving me sheet about this right here on the bored several years ago (Jeff can no doubt provide a link), the only time she truly heckled me. Alas, I remain impenitent, still charging at windmills after all these years, so was pleased to find the cameo below on p. 103 of Aaron Ayscough's The World of Natural Wine. Ironically, it was Sharon who introduced me to Aaron's writing, with which I usually find myself aligned.

Please note the reference to sharp malic acidity in the first paragraph and the anathema fatwa in the last.

 

[BJ]

originally posted by Salil Benegal:
1992 Rene Rostaing Côte-Rôtie Cuvée Classique was a revelation the other night. I've had more misses than hits from Rostaing and often found them a bit oaky. But that was gorgeous, tons of green and black olives, smoky and meaty and herbal notes, and gentle red fruit. Everything I could expect from an old school N Rhone, just that I didn't expect any of that from that bottle.

A 2012 Domaine Joël Champet Côte-Rôtie La Viallière was also excellent, slightly overshadowed that evening by the Rostaing, but showing plenty of savoury olive/smoky/herbal elements around a more youthful red fruited core. Still quite young (yes, yes, I know it violates the Rule of 15) with quite a bit of tannic grip, but delicious.

The Rule will set you free.

 

[BJ]

05 Mont Redon CnP

Classic stuff, not yet in tertiaries. This was obviously well-kept (recent purchase from RWC).

Stormy cool day here in Jet City, crazy hail cloud came over town like a huge UFO. Seemed like the right accompaniment.

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by BJ:
05 Mont Redon CnP

Classic stuff, not yet in tertiaries. This was obviously well-kept (recent purchase from RWC).

Stormy cool day here in Jet City, crazy hail cloud came over town like a huge UFO. Seemed like the right accompaniment.

La Cigare Volante, eh?

Mark Lipton

 

[Ken Schramm]

originally posted by Steve Edmunds:
how old is Barry Sanders, now? Does he still run? Is he younger, or older than I am? I forget...

54 or 55, I believe.

 

[Ken Schramm]

originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Well, there's always the Pistons.

Ouch. I worked for them for six years. I can't even watch anymore.

 

[BJ]

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by BJ:
05 Mont Redon CnP

Classic stuff, not yet in tertiaries. This was obviously well-kept (recent purchase from RWC).

Stormy cool day here in Jet City, crazy hail cloud came over town like a huge UFO. Seemed like the right accompaniment.

La Cigare Volante, eh?

Mark Lipton

Well done!

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Marc D:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:


Thanks, Marc, good to know! It makes sense for an interventionist producer to choose the "right" bacteria, as well as the "right" yeast for fermentation. But these are of little interest to most of us here.

For blocking, in addition to SO2, the other method is sterile filtration. Some say one is "worse," others say the other.

A very fine Portuguese producer (noted for his whites) told me he can taste, and doesn't like, when malo has been blocked. So, he never blocks. I suppose that's because malic is harsher than tartaric and, of course, the lactic that comes from malo. While I sometimes find acidity harsh in a way that makes me suspect blocking, I don't have my friend's confidence, so it's not so much an objection to SO2 per se as a matter of non-intervention for me.

.

I think it gets very interesting especially in regards to champagne and when I looked at some of the producers who don’t use malolactic fermentation or do partial malo on some bottles, the list includes a lot of champagnes that I suspect most participants here drink and enjoy.

Here’s a list from an article by Amber Lebeau entitled “Champagne and Climate Change is blocking MLF the answer for fresher bubbles?”
Gosset Grand Reserve
Gosset Grand Reserve Brut.
Alfred Gratien
AR Lenoble (partial though in recent vintages it has been blocked completely)
Bérêche et Fils
Besserat de Bellefon
Guy Charlemagne (partial)
Gosset (Most no MLF. Partial with Brut Excellence NV)
Krug
Laherte Frères (partial for some cuvees. Completely blocked on others.)
Lanson (partial for Black Label. Completely blocked on others)
Roger-Constant Lemaire
Nicolas Maillart (partial)
José Michel & Fils (partial)
Louis Nicaise (partial)
Franck Pascal (partial)
Pehu-Simonet
Perseval-Farge (partial)
Eric Rodez (partial)
Louis Roederer (partial with the Brut premier and sometimes Cristal rose. Completely blocked on others.)
Salon
Frédéric Savart (partial)
Camille Savès
Thevenet-Delouvin (partial)
Vazart-Coquart & Fils (partial)
J.L. Vergnon
Maurice Vesselle
Vilmart & Cie
Philipponnat

So I don’t know the details of how each producer listed here blocks malo. Do they use temperature control, SO2, filtering or some combination? Anyway I drink and really enjoy champagne from several on the above list.

With this in mind, this weekend, one of family birthdays, was irrigated with Selosse Rosé (deg 2016) and 2016 Lassaigne Sainte-Sophie, the first fabulous, though a bit over-enthusiastic in the wheat germ department, the second the epitome of structural perfection, though a bit short on classic notes like bread dough, yeast and brioche (but if we can't have brioche, why can't we have bread?). A recent NV Suisse Laval Rosé Brut Nature (from a cousin of Georges) was exuberant and lovely, though a NV 1er Cru Brut Nature from same was fine but less memorable. None seemed the worse for wear for having untampered acidity.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
2016 Lassaigne Sainte-Sophie..........the epitome of structural perfection, though a bit short on classic notes like bread dough, yeast and brioche

dude, it's Montgueux!

comes ( or more precisely does not come ) with the territory ime

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
2016 Lassaigne Sainte-Sophie..........the epitome of structural perfection, though a bit short on classic notes like bread dough, yeast and brioche

dude, it's Montgueux!

comes ( or more precisely does not come ) with the territory ime

Ah, so Montgueux is a wayward child? Aube damned.

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Ah, so Montgueux is a wayward child? Aube damned.

Hah. So depending on where you went to elementary school (and whether your Champagne curriculum was the responsibility of the Polit Sci or the Home Ec teacher), Montgueux will either be grouped with the Aube or the Cote des Blancs. It's a total chalk outcrop at some altitude, so decide for yourself :-)
Regardless, we can agree on wayward.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Pavel Tchichikov:

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Ah, so Montgueux is a wayward child? Aube damned.

Hah. So depending on where you went to elementary school (and whether your Champagne curriculum was the responsibility of the Polit Sci or the Home Ec teacher), Montgueux will either be grouped with the Aube or the Cote des Blancs. It's a total chalk outcrop at some altitude, so decide for yourself :-)
Regardless, we can agree on wayward.

In my case it was the Sex Ed teacher. Explains a lot.