CWD: recent wines part B (2024-03)

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
After I couldn’t keep my hands off my 2022 Tiberio Cerasuolo, I’m on to 2023. The test bottle was a resounding success. As delightful as 2022 but in a slightly more savory package. Those of you in NYC or its suburbs extending throughout the U.S., PJ Wines is basically giving it away, especially for the next 1.5 hours.

Delivery either to my office or my home for $15 (for orders under $170). Not bad.

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
The Le Piane range hits a real sweet spot for me too.

It might for me, too, but the 2018 Le Piane Boca available at the restaurant last night for a mere $298 a bottle was a hard pass.

Mark Lipton

Yeah, the Boca isn't cheap, although it's cheaper in some markets than others (but that $298 looks like NYC restaurant pricing). It would be around $90 retail in NC based on the wholesale cost. However, the other wines are priced much more sharply and just as good if in a different way. To put it another way, I've never had a bottle of Le Piane that wasn't at least good.

Love the wines, but who is the importer (or did I already ask that), as their markup is pretty high? The wines are about $50 (25% VAT inclusive) retail here, but I guess that happens frequently (Duplessis is another example where the wines are about double our Norwegian retail in NY.)

Maybe I have the wrong notion about state monopolies, but "double Norwegian retail" to cross the Atlantic sounds like someone is taking a huge margin.

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by VLM:

2022 Tiberio Cerasuolo d'Abruzzo - Italy, Abruzzi, Cerasuolo d'Abruzzo (3/31/2024)
Delicious, as usual. I know other people age this, and I have too, but it is so undeniable where it is I'm not sure I ever will on purpose. (91 points)

Cerasuolo d'Abruzzo is right up there with Bugey-Cerdon and Moscato d'Asti in the race for world's jolliest wine.

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Jayson Cohen:
The Le Piane range hits a real sweet spot for me too.

It might for me, too, but the 2018 Le Piane Boca available at the restaurant last night for a mere $298 a bottle was a hard pass.

Mark Lipton

Yeah, the Boca isn't cheap, although it's cheaper in some markets than others (but that $298 looks like NYC restaurant pricing). It would be around $90 retail in NC based on the wholesale cost. However, the other wines are priced much more sharply and just as good if in a different way. To put it another way, I've never had a bottle of Le Piane that wasn't at least good.

Love the wines, but who is the importer (or did I already ask that), as their markup is pretty high? The wines are about $50 (25% VAT inclusive) retail here, but I guess that happens frequently (Duplessis is another example where the wines are about double our Norwegian retail in NY.)

Maybe I have the wrong notion about state monopolies, but "double Norwegian retail" to cross the Atlantic sounds like someone is taking a huge margin.

Le Piane doesn't have a national importer so the prices seem to vary widely. I bought a bottle of the Boca for $60 retail from NY which is the NC wholesale. Still expensive.

 

[Odd Rydland]

Monopolies on the buting/sale side can be used to get good deals for consumers instead of gouging. Not only for wine, but for medicine etc....

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Odd Rydland:
Monopolies on the sale side can be used to get good deals for consumers instead of gouging.

Yes. But first of all if you live in Norway it is the only game in town. So it is not so much “can” as, well, must. Then the issue is not the Vinmonopol’s markup, but the outrageous markups taken by the absurdly fractured wine import system, where few companies are large enough to generate a profit. And then there are all those pesky taxes. That said, expensive wines are often cheaper than the US, particularly cult wines. Just avoid restaurants where a $15 wine at retail often shows up at $80+.

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by Odd Rydland:
Monopolies on the buting/sale side can be used to get good deals for consumers instead of gouging. Not only for wine, but for medicine etc....

True, but with fixed or at least fairly loyal demand, the incentive for a profit-making or tax-raising entity is to beat down the supplier and maintain the price. This has a moral and practical downside for medicine and key food categories, but not wine. In fact some in government or public policy might see the high pricing as a benefit.

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Odd Rydland:
Monopolies on the sale side can be used to get good deals for consumers instead of gouging.

Yes. But first of all if you live in Norway it is the only game in town. So it is not so much “can” as, well, must. Then the issue is not the Vinmonopol’s markup, but the outrageous markups taken by the absurdly fractured wine import system, where few companies are large enough to generate a profit. And then there are all those pesky taxes. That said, expensive wines are often cheaper than the US, particularly cult wines. Just avoid restaurants where a $15 wine at retail often shows up at $80+.

For those of us not up on the Norwegian distribution system, does the route to consumer go like this: Importer > Vinmonopol > on-premise business or consumer (off-premise)?
Or is it more like this: Importer > Vinmonopol > retail tier?

Does Vinmonompol also skip importers and deal directly with producers or suppliers?

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Odd Rydland:
Monopolies on the sale side can be used to get good deals for consumers instead of gouging.

Yes. But first of all if you live in Norway it is the only game in town. So it is not so much “can” as, well, must. Then the issue is not the Vinmonopol’s markup, but the outrageous markups taken by the absurdly fractured wine import system, where few companies are large enough to generate a profit. And then there are all those pesky taxes. That said, expensive wines are often cheaper than the US, particularly cult wines. Just avoid restaurants where a $15 wine at retail often shows up at $80+.

For those of us not up on the Norwegian distribution system, does the route to consumer go like this: Importer > Vinmonopol > on-premise business or consumer (off-premise)?
Or is it more like this: Importer > Vinmonopol > retail tier?

Does Vinmonompol also skip importers and deal directly with producers or suppliers?

So it is Importer > Vinmonopol for retail. Polet *is* the retailer with stores all over the country and dozens in Oslo. Not all stores are the same. Long story on that.

The onsale sale of wine is from Importer to Restaurant. That sector, known as Horeca here comprises everyone who will resell the product (but no retail stores other than Polet are permitted). Beer under 5% can be sold in supermarkets. But that is it. I believe the prices are set but do not include VAT as that will be collected when the wine is sold to a consumer ordering a meal or at a Hotel bar. I don't know quite enough about that, though, to give you more details.

Vinmonopolet does not import and works with importers under an incredibly arcane system comprising many categories.

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Odd Rydland:
Monopolies on the sale side can be used to get good deals for consumers instead of gouging.

Yes. But first of all if you live in Norway it is the only game in town. So it is not so much “can” as, well, must. Then the issue is not the Vinmonopol’s markup, but the outrageous markups taken by the absurdly fractured wine import system, where few companies are large enough to generate a profit. And then there are all those pesky taxes. That said, expensive wines are often cheaper than the US, particularly cult wines. Just avoid restaurants where a $15 wine at retail often shows up at $80+.

For those of us not up on the Norwegian distribution system, does the route to consumer go like this: Importer > Vinmonopol > on-premise business or consumer (off-premise)?
Or is it more like this: Importer > Vinmonopol > retail tier?

Does Vinmonompol also skip importers and deal directly with producers or suppliers?

So it is Importer > Vinmonopol for retail. Polet *is* the retailer with stores all over the country and dozens in Oslo. Not all stores are the same...
Vinmonopolet does not import and works with importers under an incredibly arcane system comprising many categories.

That's very surprising. Seems like it would be easy for them to capture the importers' margins in many cases, in much the same way that chains like Tesco do.

 

[Odd Rydland]

Their (the monopolys) margins are strictly regulated.

 

[Christian Miller (CMM)]

originally posted by Odd Rydland:
Their (the monopolys) margins are strictly regulated.

Does this mean that:

1) if the importer had a markup of 20% on cost, and the Vinmopol's "wholesale" markup was 25%, a wine costing 10 euros ex-cellars would be sold by Vinmopol for 15 euros? (ignoring transportation costs here).

2) if Vinmopol bought directly from the producer at 10 euros, they would be obligated to sell the wine to consumers/on-premise at a 25% merkup, i.e. 12.5 euros?

In which case the consumer interest favors direct from producer purchases, while the interest of those who want to reduce alcohol sales favors the current importer structure. Revenue enhancement would slightly favor the current system IF one assumes no increase in sales based on the lower price from "direct import".

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):

originally posted by Odd Rydland:
Their (the monopolys) margins are strictly regulated.

Does this mean that:

1) if the importer had a markup of 20% on cost, and the Vinmopol's "wholesale" markup was 25%, a wine costing 10 euros ex-cellars would be sold by Vinmopol for 15 euros? (ignoring transportation costs here).

2) if Vinmopol bought directly from the producer at 10 euros, they would be obligated to sell the wine to consumers/on-premise at a 25% merkup, i.e. 12.5 euros?

In which case the consumer interest favors direct from producer purchases, while the interest of those who want to reduce alcohol sales favors the current importer structure. Revenue enhancement would slightly favor the current system IF one assumes no increase in sales based on the lower price from "direct import".

Yes and no. Case (1) is the current legal structure, but those percentages in both cases are likely higher. This scenario is not completely right as there as 5 taxes on a bottle of wine. As in many European countries goods are sold VAT inclusive and they don't add tax at checkout. So the consumer pays much more than in your theoretical calculation.

Case (2) does not exist as the law and Vinmonopolet's mandate do not allow for that. So you cannot really compare the extant commercial structure with a non-existent one? Right?

Though one reason for the monopolies would have been to reduce alcohol consumption and regulate its production domestically, that is clearly not the current situation as they sell a great deal of wine and spirits.

 

[Odd Rydland]

Here is how it works.

Vinmonopolet is a sales organization, they don’t import. Anything any approved importer wants to sell in Norway, will be sold. Anything else is a no-no in EU (which we have a special relation to). And anyway what we want to control is the sales (opening hours, age limits and distribution in general). The locations of shops are under some regulation.

Several times a year there are tenders for wines in various categories (pricewise, stylewise etc). The offers are evaluated for quality by a panel, and the winners are carried by all shops (more ore less as there are shop categories based on size). In addition, shops are allowed to carry a selection from importers list within some limits, based on shop managers decisions.

All offers from importers can be ordered either online or based on a visit to a shop. I think there are 6 fixed times a year where the offers are updated in the shops (based on accepted tenders) and online. The wines will be distributed to a shop of your choice and can be collected there, or distributed by Vinmonopolet to a post office. So the location of shops are in anyway not very relevant, except for ease of access. The post office will control for age and (interestingly) only accept for collection within Vinmonopolets official opening hours.

Re cost; we have a 25% sales tax, an alcohol tax based on alcohol content, and a surcharge capped at a max of NOK 110 (slightly above 10 USD) to cover Vinmonopolets cost.

The importers are free to set their prices on any wine, (except for tenders) but the system ensures a rather fierce competition (except for wines with a very limited supply, think Raveneau etc which have a separate system for releases). And a two tier system with some controls on gouging. The taxes means that really cheap wine doesn’t exist, but also a reasonable access to expensive wine at often very competitive prices.

Edit: Direct buying from an producer will have to go through an established importer and sold through Vinmonopolet with all the VAT and taxes mentioned above (however the seller will deduct local VAT and taxes for export purposes AFAIK). Possible, but combersome and expensive.

We have however rather lax regulations on wine carried when you are travelling, you can carry around 30 bottles and only pay the alcohol tax only (currently around 45 NOK pr 75 cl bottle of wine). That means you have to travel across the border with the stuff. So get them sent to Sweden (no limitations as Sweden is a full EU member) and drive across the border for collection at some friends is an option. :-)

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Odd Rydland:

All offers from importers can be ordered either online or based on a visit to a shop.

I agree with most of what you have written, but not this. If a wine from a given importer appears on the Vinmonopol website, yes. Otherwise, you sometimes can get unlisted wines (but on the importers' lists) by special order (some importers send out infrequent special offers to customers), but not always.

There are some importers who sell only a portion of their wines to consumers via Vinmonopolet, but the full list may only be available to restaurants. Unless you know them, you would not know that they have these wines.

 

[Odd Rydland]

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Odd Rydland:

All offers from importers can be ordered either online or based on a visit to a shop.

I agree with most of what you have written, but not this. If a wine from a given importer appears on the Vinmonopol website, yes. Otherwise, you sometimes can get unlisted wines (but on the importers' lists) by special order (some importers send out infrequent special offers to customers), but not always.

There are some importers who sell only a portion of their wines to consumers via Vinmonopolet, but the full list may only be available to restaurants. Unless you know them, you would not know that they have these wines.

Yes, that's true and I am on some lists (having bought some Balthazar Cornas recently on direct order). But still the sales will have to go through Vinmonopolet, so that is an exception as for ordering, the sales system is as described. I am still sitting on 4 bottles of Roumier Bonnes Mares 2002 bought for 90 USD pr bottle through this systen in 2005 or thereabouts. But yes, this is an exception and generally only applicable to wines on very limited supply where listing them online would have very little meaning/impact.

But anybody can get on those mailing lists, the importer will prioritize on fulfillment of the order based on order history. We are some friends who order under one of the names to ensure a good history from a couple of importers. Access to wines on very limited supply is always a tricky problem and up for much debate in Norway.

And the Horeca system is different. You will find wines in restaurants which have never been available to the general public.

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Odd Rydland:

originally posted by mark e:

originally posted by Odd Rydland:

All offers from importers can be ordered either online or based on a visit to a shop.

I agree with most of what you have written, but not this. If a wine from a given importer appears on the Vinmonopol website, yes. Otherwise, you sometimes can get unlisted wines (but on the importers' lists) by special order (some importers send out infrequent special offers to customers), but not always.

There are some importers who sell only a portion of their wines to consumers via Vinmonopolet, but the full list may only be available to restaurants. Unless you know them, you would not know that they have these wines.

But anybody can get on those mailing lists, the importer will prioritize on fulfillment of the order based on order history. Access of wines on very limited supply is always a tricky problem and up for much debate in Norway.

True. Anyone can get on those lists, but there are many wines that consumers have no idea exist (as I mentioned) but are on importers' master lists. Yeah, order fulfillment from email offers remains a mystery to me. Some years, I have received one or two bottles of Clape Cornas, most times zero, even if I answer the email within a few minutes. The limited stuff is a complete black box and should be up for debate. I would never under any circumstance sleep overnight in front of a store to get a low entry number for, say, the annual sale of Burgundy.

 

[Odd Rydland]

I am on the same page as you here. I have never queued up, life is to short. I still managed to get some Dønnhoff Hermanshøhle showing up at opening hour on the previous German wine release in Bergen, and multiple Keller bottles were still available in the shop (at too rich a price for me). As for the mailing lists, the operative word here is order history.

But as for distribution of wines available in a 12 bottle lot, what to do? I have no idea. A lottery perhaps, with the lucky winners flipping their spoils in London? I seriously have no idea.

It is under debate, but nobody has any good ideas as to what would be a good system. Putting them up online only to see 20.000 customers logging in, many of them with mutiple sessions through friends and family? You could just as well buy tickets to a lottery. At least the importers I occasionally use make sure they don't sell the wines to flippers. The Norwegian fine wine market is rather transparent.

And of course the market could fix this by setting the price right = op high that hardly anybody could afford them.

 

[Claude Kolm]

Maybe this thread should be relabelled "Intricacies of Wine-Buying in Norway"? ;-)

 

[mark e]

originally posted by Odd Rydland:
I am on the same page as you here. I have never queued up, life is to short. I still managed to get some Dønnhoff Hermanshøhle showing up at opening hour on the previous German wine release in Bergen, and multiple Keller bottles were still available in the shop (at too rich a price for me).

Well, I will tell my Vinmonopol German wine-buying story so everyone here can laugh a bit at my expense: Last spring, when the German wine release day arrived, I drove down the big Aker Brygge store in Oslo, found a great parking space and waited in front of the door about ½ hr before the opening time. There was only one other guy there, which I found a little strange. It was still cold out in early April, so waiting there was not terribly pleasant. A woman who worked at the store came out and handed us a slip of paper each: nos. 49 and 50 were on them. We had no idea why those numbers, but we shrugged and stood waiting for the store to open. What do you know: 5 min before opening, all these guys (and they were almost all men) started showing up and telling us to move out of the way. Somehow, sometime much earlier (no idea even when), they must have arrived there and received lower numbers and then went off for coffee or whatever.

Now all these fuckers looked like they all came from the west side of Oslo (if you know what I mean), and some likely had cars and drivers waiting for them. Long story short - the store opens, and they let EVERYONE in at once. It is, for lack of a better term, a clusterfuck. I should say that I only buy a bit of Falkenstein and Zilliken every year. Too many producers are now much too expensive, at least for me, and even the wines I do buy have gone up 20-30% every year. Anyway, there I see in front of me ONE guy with a dolly loaded with their ENTIRE allocation of Falkenstein, maybe 15 six-packs, maybe more. Others were checking out with perhaps $10,000+ in GGs. WTF.

Yeah, ok, I got a little bit of the Zilliken wines and some Vollenweider, but 'cmon that JUST AIN'T FAIR.

Never again. There is no such thing as being a "good" customer at a wine store in Norway, not really. They probably think it is much more democratic, but that is BS.

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