Latour with Guinea Fowl?

[fatboy]

originally posted by mark e:

Not sure if the ennui would abate, but without a question, the wines were different 25 years ago. That elusive thing Bill Mayer called a perfect Mosel kabinett is likely never to be seen again - or maybe it will, but we won't see it.

my sense entirely.

my attempt (at this point, in cet, a couple of glasses to teh wind) to make sense of all teh foregoing is to recall that i did actually love riesling from once upon a time -- you will remember bottles shared in sf, and i am lucky still to have shit-tonsish of same in teh fatcave. and i do like it when others push me to open those older wines.

what is notable is that, rather than getting teh drinking unicorn boner, i find these wines less interesting than if they weren't -- by dint of climate changes -- such fucking unicorns. there is an aesthetic joy that comes from connected experience that cannot be replicated in a drive-by.

all this and teh foregoing fat-twaddle will hopefully fumble towards why, at some point, i just grew cold on newer versions of same. long before teh plumpsensors got teh clue. (hence teh rieslinglake.)

i've had teh same experience with red burgundy, but in that case, it was all confounded with teh doltish price increases.

which is to say, at some point, you figure it isn't you that has changed. it is teh shit in teh glass. dolts notwithstanding.

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[fatboy]

originally posted by georg lauer:

originally posted by Peter Creasey:

michael, your reprimand should be directed to georg (note his small g). my prior posting was done correctly (unlike this one). thanks for the attention, though.

. . . . pete

Don't ever again call my g small.

lol.

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(note to politburo -- wasn't teh idea that we inch towards teh perestroika / glasnost in small steps.)

 

[Peter Creasey]

georg, I sent you an apologetic private message.

. . . . . Pete

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

Tom, you strike me as a very competent and an enthusiastic (amateur?) cook, something that's missed around here particularly since an untimely departure of you-know-who.

originally posted by Tom Blach:
I tend to think of the 20 tweezered ingredient school as ADHD cuisine, which is probably very inappropriate of me. I can't stand it. I don't think there's a huge amount of science in food and wine matching and it can be a bit silly even though I enjoy tradition for its own sake both on the plate and in the glass-is there really anything better than a Sole Meuniere with a great white burgundy?

to be clear - by "complex" i wasn't referring to busy food with too many ingredients that i bet i dislike at least as much as you do, the answer to which is indeed an innocuous cremant mostly out of fear of offending a friendly grape

sole meuniere, you say? i once tried to impress a girl, who produced an excellent version of that very dish, with a bottle of 2000 coche-dury somethingorother. disaster. emergency dive into cave produced an 88 chassagne village (niellon or ramonet) that worked brilliantly.
the dish as i know it *is* complex because depending on what you do with pan juices adjusting for texture, acidity, herbs, spices, will open up various flavour passageways that may require a complex wine (either in pedigree/finesse but more likely in evolution)
so i am all for sole meuniere with great white burg, but not asking the "which" question is very much outdated (despite objections to the term in this very thread), not to mention that having to relegate your coche to next day's btg program in absence of teh fatsink at place of residence feels entirely too bourgeois for my humble beginnings

honestly, when you order a burger (or hell even a steak frites), do you choose 1983 lafite or 2012 cissac from the list? or, in a parallel universe if you absolutely must, an 1988 latricieres or 2016 cote de beaune?

grand quotes are fine, but i speak from lots of trial and error and am excited to hear re the same from others

 

[Tom Blach]

Sole meuniere is sole, clarified butter, unclarified butter,flour(the very lightest application), salt, pepper, parsley(a tiny amount of very dry curly-leaved, chopped to dust) and lemon juice-if it's a proper Dover sole anything else is redundant at the very least. I was granted a few 2000s from Coche(different and better times) at release price, which was very low, and though I didn't drink any with this dish I would have been surprised if there had been a problem. Obviously I wasn't there but the 'which' question can just as easily apply to the dish as to the wine.
I do like very specific prescriptions-Morey St.Denis Les Blanchards should only be taken with Lapin a la Moutarde-but the considerable joy is mostly in the pedantry. We could have shogayaki instead but I would be disappointed.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by georg lauer:

I have heard many times how the Prüms serve old (and much less overtly sweet) Auslese with their stag roast. But just like any other off dry Riesling, I likely would have enough after one glass, even as I can imagine it going well with the pear and boysenberries they serve with it.

Actually, it wasn't very old (not really even middle-aged) and was quite sweet. That said, I think Spätlese easily is the most versatile of the fruity-style Rieslings.

That said, I drink far less wines of any origin with residual sugar than I once did. E.g., I've got plenty of Sauternes still but the last vintage I bought was 1990, and it's probably been five years at least since I opened a Sauternes (I have opened some noble sweet Rieslings in the intervening time and even a Scheurebe or two).

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by fatboy:

originally posted by georg lauer:
Just to be clear, I totally see the appeal and quality of these wines. I used to buy them regularly. But they all sit untouched in my cellar as we never find a find a reason to drink them and I have started to give them away.

at the risk of alienating everyone in this conversation, i increasingly find this to be true of riesling in general, regardless of its sugar content. and that this point applies even to rieslings from growers whose other wines i am otherwise disposed to open at the drop of a hat.

a winegrower i am friendly with in franconia, who makes quite delicious riesling and silvaner, once confided to me that he feels similarly, if perhaps even more strongly. he told me he shuddering slightly at teh thought of actually drinking riesling, describing how he felt it was a 'cold' grape, emotionally.

i sort of got what he meant -- and it certainly helps in understanding why he has planted teh chenin.

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Germans have long been noted for coveting the wines of Italy and France while ignoring the domestic product. That said, regard in Germany for German Riesling is up considerably overall these days, even if it's down in a certain Schloss in a corner of SW Germany, and there's even renewed interest in Kabinett and Spätlese, although the trockens rule the roost and Germany is basically a country of dry wines these days.

In general, also, Mosel has never had very high regard from Germans (outside the Mosel), and few have even heard of Nahe.

Re Chenin Blanc, Loire producers are very interested in Riesling and some have made wines from grapes sourced in Alsace. There's a(n obvious) message there.

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by Rahsaan:

originally posted by Keith Levenberg:
This might be an age thing. I used to be able to guzzle off-dry riesling with food and without, but at some point in my late 30s it turned into "one glass is enough" and I couldn't do it anymore.

What role does age play? You stopped consuming other sweet things as you aged?

When I was a lot younger, I had an insatiable craving for all things sweet, but I lost that sweet tooth sometime in my late thirties, too, even if I do enjoy something sweet 3=/- times a week (talking food).

 

[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by mark e:

Not sure if the ennui would abate, but without a question, the wines were different 25 years ago.

Wines everywhere are different from 25 years ago. And our palates, too (partly due to our aging). And there is so much more to choose from. And prices for wines that any of us would drink are considerably more than they were 25 years ago -- not just Burgundy, but from everywhere, including Rieslings.

 

[Rahsaan]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
...I had an insatiable craving for all things sweet, but I lost that sweet tooth sometime in my late thirties...

Interesting. I wonder is that a common/general thing.

I've certainly lost my taste for the artificial candy I used to eat as a little kid. But that happened before my thirties.

 

[Rahsaan]

Also interesting to read all these Riesling Confessions. Still a small enough sample that I'm not sure what to make of it. (Although of course this board is an esteemed and significant sample of scholars)

I have become less interested in the rs rieslings, but overall I mainly go through periods of drinking more riesling and drinking more chenin, alternating those periods as the mood shifts. Of course other whites as well, but those are the main ones.

And there are so many styles of dry riesling, with different structure/flavors/etc, that I also find plenty to rotate within the grape.

But hey, lots of wine in the world!

 

[Pavel Tchichikov]

originally posted by Tom Blach:
Sole meuniere is sole, clarified butter, unclarified butter,flour(the very lightest application), salt, pepper, parsley(a tiny amount of very dry curly-leaved, chopped to dust) and lemon juice-if it's a proper Dover sole anything else is redundant at the very least. I was granted a few 2000s from Coche(different and better times) at release price, which was very low, and though I didn't drink any with this dish I would have been surprised if there had been a problem. Obviously I wasn't there but the 'which' question can just as easily apply to the dish as to the wine.
I do like very specific prescriptions-Morey St.Denis Les Blanchards should only be taken with Lapin a la Moutarde-but the considerable joy is mostly in the pedantry. We could have shogayaki instead but I would be disappointed.

coche was way too young once the food was in play. it was ok at first, tasted on its own, then a fully elastic collision between wine and palate. this sort of food begs for more texture, more secondary development, does not do that well with any remnants of primary fruit sweetness.

to reiterate - empirically, i reject the idea of simple wine with complex food and vice-versa, but then again, given that i consider dishes such as sole meuniere not to be simple, we may not be that far apart on the matter after all [with everyone, i don't mean tom specifically]

and we don't even need to cook, in order to pay attention. my new favorite oyster dealer has a steady and a well-researched inventory from a single farm in maine. his oyster X goes great with peppiere, while Y with luneau-papin. difference not subtle. is that really joy in pedantry? more like joy in getting it right, and money well spent.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

Distinguishing between which oyster goes with Pepiere and which with Luneau-Papin (which cuvée of Pepiere, which of Luneau-Papin? are there different oysters for the Briords, the Clisson, the des allees and the L d'Or?) certainly does sound like the joy of pedantry to me. Nor should such joys be dissed or sniffed at? Give up the joy of pedantry today, and the joy of wine will not be far behind.

 

[Tristan Welles]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
certainly does sound like the joy of pedantry to me. .

The amount of bottle variation we all experience, and report here, to me suggests it is not very useful pedantry at that. (never mind variation in oysters against expectations).

Not so say some don't enjoy the pedantry.

 

[fatboy]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

Germans have long been noted for coveting the wines of Italy and France while ignoring the domestic product. That said, regard in Germany for German Riesling is up considerably overall these days, even if it's down in a certain Schloss in a corner of SW Germany, and there's even renewed interest in Kabinett and Spätlese, although the trockens rule the roost and Germany is basically a country of dry wines these days.

oddly enough, there are degrees of consistency in both of our positions. first, because, notwithstanding my lack of being teh german, i find that even among teh riesling refuseniks of my acquaintance, there is a continued enthusiasm for silvaner. increasing enthusiasm for same, even. which, given teh demographics of riesling and silvaner, suggests that parochialism is unlikely to explain this.

at the same time, as i think we all agree, climatic conditions have changed everything. those changes might have turned me (and georg, and others) off of teh riesling, but this needn't necessarily rule out an increase in popularity for said hooch. in fact, it might even help explain it.

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[fatboy]

originally posted by Claude Kolm:
Wines everywhere are different from 25 years ago. And our palates, too (partly due to our aging).

because i occasionally play a researcher who dabbles in aging on another bored, a simple question: if we agree wines have changed (because climate change) and most other foods have changed (because of changes in the behavior of the food industry, and the necessity of even teh fine dining to accommodate the way these changes have affected teh expectations of teh punters), how can you (or anyone else for that matter) hope to know?

this isn't meant as an argumentative comment, but very much as a question about teh degree people question their assumptions about aging -- is it me, or has teh world changed?

in this case, we know the answer to one of these things is clear. the other? well, how do you figure it out?

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[Jonathan Loesberg]

As a bonafide old geezer, I can tell you with certainty that some changes are matters of me and not the world (to the extent that one can say that I am not part of the world). I see no reason to think that differences in powers of sight, hearing, waistline, etc. might not extend to differences in palate, though I might be less aware of the latter.

 

[fatboy]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
I see no reason to think that differences in powers of sight, hearing, waistline, etc. might not extend to differences in palate, though I might be less aware of the latter.

you could have stopped at "i see no reason to think."

synaptic connectivity in your brain mostly (is region dependent) peaked before you were 5. i'm sure you were a smarter, more amusing, and generally well rounded being then.

for most of us, our sight, hearing, waistline peak in our late teens to mid 20s. same.

teh point, exactly?

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[Claude Kolm]

originally posted by fatboy:

originally posted by Claude Kolm:

Germans have long been noted for coveting the wines of Italy and France while ignoring the domestic product. That said, regard in Germany for German Riesling is up considerably overall these days, even if it's down in a certain Schloss in a corner of SW Germany, and there's even renewed interest in Kabinett and Spätlese, although the trockens rule the roost and Germany is basically a country of dry wines these days.

oddly enough, there are degrees of consistency in both of our positions. first, because, notwithstanding my lack of being teh german, i find that even among teh riesling refuseniks of my acquaintance, there is a continued enthusiasm for silvaner. increasing enthusiasm for same, even. which, given teh demographics of riesling and silvaner, suggests that parochialism is unlikely to explain this.

at the same time, as i think we all agree, climatic conditions have changed everything. those changes might have turned me (and georg, and others) off of teh riesling, but this needn't necessarily rule out an increase in popularity for said hooch. in fact, it might even help explain it.

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I love both Silvaner (they're even making some very good ones in Alsace these days, although they'll never challenge the best of Franken) and Riesling, and I wouldn't want a world without either.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by fatboy:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
I see no reason to think that differences in powers of sight, hearing, waistline, etc. might not extend to differences in palate, though I might be less aware of the latter.

you could have stopped at "i see no reason to think."

synaptic connectivity in your brain mostly (is region dependent) peaked before you were 5. i'm sure you were a smarter, more amusing, and generally well rounded being then.

for most of us, our sight, hearing, waistline peak in our late teens to mid 20s. same.

teh point, exactly?

fb.

Cute but not to the point. If you are not older than 65, and you never engaged in any regular form of athletic activity, then you don’t yet know what physical decline looks like. My point, which should have been obvious, is that if you don’t, at that age, think that you are not what you once were, you are whistling past the cemetery. Based on where you say my sentence could have stopped, I’d say your ability to to produce well formed sentences is, at best, not improving.