Adventures in the skin trade

originally posted by Thor:
...total production often ranges between limited and anecdotal...
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Splendid turn of phrase.

...there was simply not much time to spend with each wine, teasing out each hidden notion and ribald suggestion.
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Agreed. Levi did provision every setting with 5 glasses but, even so, with 3 or 4 new ones showing up every 15 minutes it was hard to shelter a wine to see how it evolved.

While I have Time on the table: the event ran from 7:30 to 12:30.

Cornelissen 2007 MunJebel 4 Bianco (Sicily) ...its merely fascinating, but the fascination is brief.
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We diverge on this one. I found the fascination continued. I agree that it was jangly and jumpy. But wow.

Gravner 2000 Ribolla Gialla (Venezia Giulia) Sweet yellow cherry with some oddities I cant quite identify. Whatevers going on, its tasty enough but a little distracting. Long. (7/09)
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I thought this was the lightest and least interesting of the Heavy Hitters (Gravner, Radikon) wines.

Angiolino Maule La Biancara 1996 Taibane (Veneto) Soft. Strawberry, peach, and blood orange. This needs a lot more structure, which is something I didnt think Id be able to say about an orange wine.(7/09)
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Is it actually an orange wine? I wasnt sure. Yes, it is. The maker says it sees 3 months of spontaneous fermentation and 3 years on the lees.

Radikon 2003 Jakot (Venezia Giulia) Some alcohol here, plus pear and raw, exposed metal. Fat. The heat lingers into the finish. (7/09)
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This is one of the few orange wines that Ive had before, and this is not how I remember it. Oh, well.

that the sensory realms of my brain sort of unclench, as if theyve been operating in a state of high tension for the last few hours.
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The orange wines are relentlessly individualistic. Although there are some commonalities noticeable tannin, citrusy flavors, thicker texture -- the good ones constantly change in the glass. And not always for the better. They are wines that requires attention.

Leroy 1983 Volnay (Burgundy) Pretty. Very, very pretty. Showily so. And strikingly youthful; the structures resolved, but the fruit is still fairly primary and direct. I dont quite know what to make of this, but admittedly my palate is completely exhausted at this point. (7/09)
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Are you sure youre all right? Have you been on a Leroy junket lately?

When it plays a harmonious role, its the foundation on which the wines art and architecture are built. When it doesnt, its the squawky drone of a wheezing, decrepit bagpipe.
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Yes.

I was surprised how indifferent I was to the qualities of all but a few bottles.
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Why? Did you think Sturgeons Law did not apply to orange wines, too?
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
I was surprised how indifferent I was to the qualities of all but a few bottles.
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Why? Did you think Sturgeons Law did not apply to orange wines, too?
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But surely the wines present represented something very different from a random sample?
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SL applies everywhere, at all times. (As expressed in the original version of SL, which is the real SL, according to S, while the one most people, including me, use is really SR.)

Oh, and stop calling me Shirley.
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
SL applies everywhere, at all times..
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That doesn't make sense.

90% of everything may be crap. But not 90% of the 10% which is not crap. By definition. Unless you use a sliding definition of crap. And I don't think the original SL was a muse on subjectivity.

Plus I would have hoped you were operating in the 10% of non-crap.
 
Interesting that you say this: [deletia] But there is only wine for which you can say this: [more deletia about varietal character]
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Well, first of all, many of the wines are blends. But for example, the Zidarich Malvasia does taste like a malvasia and not like the Zidarich Vitovska, in ways that are identifiably malvasian and find commonality with non-orange malvasias. But it doesn't grab your collar and scream, "hey, malvasia here!" the way the Kante Sauvignon did regarding it's sauvignon-ness.

Lee Campbell is indeed fabulous.

While I have Time on the table: the event ran from 7:30 to 12:30.
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If Joe hadn't urged us streetward, it might have been longer.

There were some nice gaps in the evening in which I probably could have spent more time with some of the wines, but more often than not I had to taste, write, and empty fairly quickly. Aside from continually trying to help Alice figure out which wines she still had in her ever-growing collection of glasses, and which of the square white things in front of her was her plate. (emoticon...you know the drill)

Are you sure you're all right? Have you been on a Leroy junket lately?
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Lalou is my aunt and benefactor.

I guess I was asking for too much reading between the lines in that note. For me, "pretty" and "primary" are not exactly raves in the context of 26 year old red Burgundy. I thought it was a nice young pinot noir. Old Volnay? No, not so much.

Why? Did you think Sturgeon's Law did not apply to orange wines, too?
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Well, that's a fish of a different color.

I don't just mean the bad, off, or weird-on-this-night wines, I mean almost all of the wines. I usually respond to some of these wines with true enthusiasm, and that was largely absent on Wednesday night, even when the words seem to indicate that enthusiasm. It was like I knew I should be enthusiastic, and wrote that I was...but really, I wasn't. And again, I can only blame/credit the effect of tasting all of them in this format. Because despite the coda to my piece, I actually opened an '04 Arboreus last night, and very much enjoyed it (even though there was a little shudder at first sniff).
 
originally posted by Thor:
Well, first of all, many of the wines are blends. But for example, the Zidarich Malvasia does taste like a Malvasia and not like the Vitovska, in ways that are identifiably malvasian and find commonality with non-orange malvasias. But it doesn't grab your collar and scream, "hey, malvasia here!" the way the Kante Sauvignon did regarding it's sauvignon-ness.
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I see. Yes, sauvignon can be quite special with its sauvignon-ness.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
90% of everything may be crap. But not 90% of the 10% which is not crap. By definition.
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Right. Within the 10% it is possible for reasonable people to reasonably prefer this one or that one. Hardly anyone likes everything.

And I don't think the original SL was a muse on subjectivity.
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The original statement was a defense of the quality of science-fiction writing. It was uttered towards its critics, so subjectivity was in its domain.

Plus I would have hoped you were operating in the 10% of non-crap.
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Hard to know when the category is so new (and the bottle variation so extreme).
 
originally posted by Thor:
It was like I knew I should be enthusiastic, and wrote that I was...but really, I wasn't. And again, I can only blame/credit the effect of tasting all of them in this format.
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Whereas I bought three wines from the orange wine sale at Vino the next day.
 
originally posted by Thor:
I bought some yesterday as well. Obviously, I need help.
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Maybe more wives would do you some good? TFM Lee and I are already looking at the cutest get-ups for the ring-bearer and flower girls....
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
Albedo.Eric Asimov
Greg Dal Piaz
Jamie Wolff
Nathan Vandergrift
SF Joe Dougherty
Sharon Bowman
Kevin McKenna

Alice Feiring
Jeff Grossman
The Unoaked Jay Miller
Thor Iverson

Scott Reiner & Erica
The Fabulous Miss Lee Campbell

Bob Cunningham
Bruce Katz
Dan Tisch
Robert Dentice
(person)
(person)

If someone can provide the names of the (person)s, I will update.
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Stuart Leaf and Henry Kahn were the other two persons at my table.
 
i'm not surprised at all the different descriptions coming from this category of wine, but i'd be curious to know a little more about how different (or similar) the wines were in the cases of multiple bottlings from single producers. from the few notes here it seems some producers' different wines represented showed at least a bit of a winemaking handprint across bottlings, while other makers produced wildly differing offspring with each wine. i guess i am surprised by how many wines from the same producers appeared to give such varied readings, and wondered if orange wines could be more prone to this kind of in-house variation than red or white. just thinking out loud here, and moreso thinking about different releases than different vintages, but not excluding the latter either. to put it more simply (and to any orange winemakers out there): are orange wines more mercurial overall?
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart: wondered if orange wines could be more prone to this kind of in-house variation than red or white. just thinking out loud here...
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Is that a function of orange wine or just 'natural' wine in general?
 
originally posted by Joel Stewart:
i'm not surprised at all the different descriptions coming from this category of wine, but i'd be curious to know a little more about how different (or similar) the wines were in the cases of multiple bottlings from single producers. from the few notes here it seems some producers' different wines represented showed at least a bit of a winemaking handprint across bottlings, while other makers produced wildly differing offspring with each wine. i guess i am surprised by how many wines from the same producers appeared to give such varied readings, and wondered if orange wines could be more prone to this kind of in-house variation than red or white. just thinking out loud here, and moreso thinking about different releases than different vintages, but not excluding the latter either. to put it more simply (and to any orange winemakers out there): are orange wines more mercurial overall?
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The wildcard is the extent of change in winemaking style over the years. Both Radikon and Gravner have had an evolving style. It was amazing to see how much darker in color the 2001 Radikon Ribolla Gialla was than the 1997 Radikon "Riserva" Ribolla Gialla. Usually one would expect the opposite.
 
For me, it's a combo of both what Levi and Rahsaan said. This isn't exactly big house NV Champagne, with consistent goalposts, and to the very limited extent that there's a "recipe" in a given year, it might be long-forgotten (or even outright rejected) the next year.

As to the specifics...I see some spiritual (there's that word again) similarities between the Bea wines, including the Rusticum, but not necessarily including the basic Coenobium. Radikon and Gravner we've covered, except that I'll repeat the sensation that there's a little more swagger to the latter than there is in most of the rest of these wines.

I haven't had enough of the rest to say very much, I'm afraid. My Zidarich count is only up to 4, for example.
 
Monastero Suore Cistercensi S.O. Trappiste 2007 Coenobium (Lazio) Simple grapefruit rind, with a light spicing dominated by white pepper. And is that celery? Its like a stealth grner veltliner has entered the room and is masquerading as a baby orange wine. This is initially fairly disappointing, but gains a measure of weight and texture with extended aeration. Unfortunately, I dont have time to explore this in more detail.
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Had this the other night and really enjoyed it, but not at first as well. I had put it in the fridge for a little while to cool it down a bit. So, when I opened it and poured a glass it was probably around 58-60˚ (maybe a bit lower). The first glass was a jumbled mess and the alcohol level was very apparent, but as the wine opened up and warmed up to room temp (yet still cool) it began to get quite good. I agree with you Thor about the weight and texture; don't think I got any celery in mine though. All orange peel (citrus pith?), slightly bitter almonds and stone fruit cores to me.

Anyway, my question to Levi, Thor, et al. is about the temperature for serving "orange" wines. Do these generally benefit from being slightly warmer than say a lighter white? Did you guys find this to be the case in your grand tasting noted above? Levi, how do you generally serve these at the restaurant? Is there a generally or are they all different beasts?
 
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