Adventures in the skin trade

originally posted by lars makie:
Anyway, my question to Levi, Thor, et al. is about the temperature for serving "orange" wines. Do these generally benefit from being slightly warmer than say a lighter white? Did you guys find this to be the case in your grand tasting noted above? Levi, how did you generally serve these at the restaurant? Is there a generally or are they all different beasts?
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Most people will disagree, but I prefer to have these start fairly cold and warm up. I enjoy the process. I guess if I had to pick a specific point, it would be somewhere in the low 50s F.

Most folks think cellar temperature is correct. I think US room temperature is too warm.
 
The more tannic ones are a little harsh at full refrigerator temp, just as a red would be.

So I agree.
 
As Monkey predicted, I'm going to join those disagreeing with him. I think the wines are imbalanced at white-wine temperatures. They're also imbalanced when they're too warm, but then that's not unique to orange wines. I'll go beyond Joe and opine that the issue isn't just tannin (though for the tannic ones, it's the dominant issue), but also -- as you've noticed -- alcohol. Not only are the structural elements imbalanced, but the texture -- which is the most interesting thing about many of these wines -- is deformed. Plus, cool temperatures mute the aromatics, which would be the second most interesting feature of many of these wines.

My still-favorite bottle of Zidarich Vitovska was served a little colder than I've had it since. My favorite bottles of Radikon's whites have been served (by the winemaker) a little warmer than I'd had it before.

All that said, there's no one temperature that works for all of them. At Levi's dinner, some were too cold, some were too warm, some were just right, and the same wine might have inhabited all those categories within the same evening. I can easily imagine that some of the extremely "natural" wines differ in their ideal temperature from bottle to bottle.

Were I to have a new name before me, I'd probably start at just below cool room temperature, but have an ice bucket handy. I don't think the transforming effects of aeration can be ignored, either (both in positive and negative ways).
 
originally posted by Thor:
As Monkey predicted, I'm going to join those disagreeing with him.
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Fool.

My still-favorite bottle of Zidarich Vitovska was served a little colder than I've had it since. My favorite bottles of Radikon's whites have been served (by the winemaker) a little warmer than I'd had it before.
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My favorites have both started white wine cool and warmed in the glass.

That being said, I think that refrigerator cold is too cool. In America, as the saying goes, we drink our whites too cool and our reds too warm.

Again, I think most Orange wines should be served in the low 50s.

BTW, who came up with the term Orange wines? I sometimes feel like I did, but I'm not sure I can claim it.

Were I to have a new name before me, I'd probably start at just below cool room temperature
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And what the fuck is cool room temperature?

I don't think the transforming effects of aeration can be ignored, either (both in positive and negative ways).
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That has been my experience, with Radikon especially.
 
originally posted by Thor:
If I do, will it help answer Lars' question?
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I think a good response to "How the fuck do you know you fucking fuck" would be "Because I'm standing right behind you".

Oh, and thanks for the reply. Questions answered.
 
how about glass shapes?

is there anything approximating regional styles, say from the friuli, veneto, and collio regions, that ask for a certain glass shape, or are the winemakers' styles (and wines) more different amongst each other than that? (i'm betting on the latter, but not completely sure...)
 
A bit of La Stoppa "Ageno" 2005 came my way this evening. Certainly similar stylistically to the 2004, if a little less rough hewn. The '05 exhibited a brett museum, as does often the 2004. It was at room temperature. I liked it.

The Dettori '06 Bianco changes radically with 7 hours or so open. Radically. That is true of others as well. Cornelissen comes to mind.

Gravner '03 Breg and '03 Ribolla are nice if you come across an open bottle. They are not the '01, and different in style than the '02 (less light footed), but nice.

Lunar '07 is simple as it ever was, or was so on this day.

Vodopivec has such a structured straight line of grip. Like the row your fingers form when you close them tightly against your palm. I tried a Vodopivec amphora bottling today. I'm thinking about doing an amphora dinner (Gravner, Vodopivec, Guttarolo, COS).

JR told me today that he feels Orange vino gives you more of an achey hangover than other vino, using the dinner as Evidence Orange Exhibit #1. I'm at least considering this possibility, although I think any morning after symptoms were more related to quantity consumed than Orangeatosis.
 
Seriously.

This is like the argument that wine followed by beer followed by spirits leads to the worst hangover.

You do not encounter those circumstances on a night when you have had one drink.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
A bit of La Stoppa "Ageno" 2005 came my way this evening. Certainly similar stylistically to the 2004, if a little less rough hewn. The '05 exhibited a brett museum, as does often the 2004. It was at room temperature. I liked it.
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I appreciate your thoughts on the 2005 Ageno.

I also appreciate your mention of the winemaker's least favorite non-spore forming yeast genus, with respect to Ageno.

I've loved the 2004 since I first tasted it (early '08 or thereabouts), but my last few bottles have increasingly pushed my boundaries with respect to brett.

Do you feel that the beasties in this wine might perhaps be starting to spiral out of control? Or has your experience been merely ordinary up-and-down, unpredictable bottle variation?
 
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