Levi Dalton
Levi Dalton
I think that protectionism basically works against a sophisticated wine culture.
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That mean man is at it again
- Thread starter SFJoe
- Start date
I think that protectionism basically works against a sophisticated wine culture.
One interesting thing (among many) about the wine lists on both Basque sides of the border here is that they're an awful lot more broad-minded than I'm used to in wine-producing Europe. I don't just mean Spanish wines in France and vice-versa, I mean wines from all over Europe and the rest of the world, and not always just the major-exporter crap one often encounters. The other night at a temple of cuisine above Donostia, there was a good pinot noir from the Waipara on the list, and for a relatively fair price. You don't see that every day.
If anything, the lists on the French side are regionally-deficient. (Not the case in the Pais Vasco, but then they've got Rioja just down the road.) They may be trying to tell us something by that, of course, but the typically xenophobe/locavore (xenovore?) lists they're not.
Of course, I didn't need to see the McManis Cabernet Franc in a pintxo bar in Donostia, but that's a personal issue.
If anything, the lists on the French side are regionally-deficient. (Not the case in the Pais Vasco, but then they've got Rioja just down the road.) They may be trying to tell us something by that, of course, but the typically xenophobe/locavore (xenovore?) lists they're not.
Of course, I didn't need to see the McManis Cabernet Franc in a pintxo bar in Donostia, but that's a personal issue.
Zachary Ross
Zachary Ross
originally posted by Bwood:
I've always been afraid to admit it, but I've been offended at the lack of Bloomin' Onions on the Slanted Door menu.
I was hoping for the foamin' onion.
Lou Kessler
Lou Kessler
I think Mark's wine list is great taking everything in consideration couldn't be better IMHO. My only complaint with the SD is that the food is not what it used to be. Very good but not great like it was awhile back. Considering the tremendous amount of covers each day it's understandable. I'll step back and let the shots come. Oh by the way I've been eating at the SD since it's first location.
John McIlwain
John McIlwain
originally posted by mark e:
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
Mr. Ellenbogen,
Thank you for continuing to offer an interesting and thoughtful selection of wines in the face of hostility from those who would seem to be acting like you take a paycheck with their signature.
I appreciate your iconoclasm, and it serves as a model to me in my own endeavours.
Thank you, again.
Thanks for your kind words. It's funny in a city (SF) where there are 3000+ restaurants, almost all of which have gobs of California wines, some people seem to think that if I select wines that I like, and work relatively well with the menu, that I am committing a crime.
I've only be able to get in for dinner a couple of times since the move from Valencia (live on east coast and rarely make it to
California), but the winelist has never been anything but inspiring.
If you're that determined to throw back 15% Chardonnay and huge Cult Cabs, get takeout somewhere and get your gob on at home already.
Best,
Tenbrooks
Christian Miller (CMM)
Christian Miller
originally posted by Mark Davis:
hmmm..Name a great sparkler from CA that has strong acidity (real, not added), complexity, and a low dosage?
....I can't think of one...
Name people who can reliably distinguish natural from added acidity in controlled blind trials, assuming that the acidification isn't excessive or the fruit ridiculously overripe. And why would the SD wine list require low dosage? Seems to me that lots of the wines there have distinct RS, as well they should given the food.
Christian Miller (CMM)
Christian Miller
originally posted by SFJoe:
And that isn't just innocently froooty.originally posted by Mark Davis:
hmmm..Name a great sparkler from CA that has strong acidity (real, not added), complexity, and a low dosage?
Aye, there's the rub. Some of the Schramsberg Cremants, the Gloria Ferrers that spend a lot of time en tirage, Chandon Etoile and Roederer Hermitage come to mind. But I agree, it's a short list for this yeastaholic.
Christian Miller (CMM)
Christian Miller
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
originally posted by mark e:
Thanks for your kind words. It's funny in a city (SF) where there are 3000+ restaurants, almost all of which have gobs of California wines, some people seem to think that if I select wines that I like, and work relatively well with the menu, that I am committing a crime.
I know exactly what you mean. It's strange right?
Every other restaurant carries what such and such a person is used to, and some feel that I have somehow slighted them by not offering it as well. When the response might just as well be, wow, look a Pallagrello Nero to try.
Anyway, I experience this situation and that's why I wanted to give you the high sign and tell you thanks for trailblazing.
Honestly, as a sommelier, I'm not sure what value I would be adding to the experience if I weren't trying to lead customer taste a bit. What would be the point of just offering wines people are already quite familiar with, at a price point higher than they would pay for it at retail if they just brought it in as corkage? That would seem rather cynical to me.
The whole point is that you are listing something special that is perhaps not replicated in another nearby venue.
Levi, your point is well made, and I have enjoyed picking wines from SD's list when I have dined there. But I can see why people are rather miffed at the (sometimes) total lack of California wines on the list. Mark - are there really that few CA wines that you think fit into your list? People might applaud your leadership in finding and promoting such wines. I'm thinking Larsen Gewurz, Eaglepoint Albarino, Greenwood Ridge Riesling, Artezin Zin, but I'm sure more could be dug up.
Mark Davis
Mark Davis
Haven't ate there, but I will add it to my list the next time I am there on business...from what I've seen of the wine list, it looks good to me...
Joel Stewart
Joel Stewart
originally posted by mark e: It's funny in a city (SF) where there are 3000+ restaurants, almost all of which have gobs of California wines, some people seem to think that if I select wines that I like, and work relatively well with the menu, that I am committing a crime.
which makes me wonder if Eric's portrayal about SF restaurants' wine lists is really accurate...in that he is saying a trend worth remarking on is taking place
Mark Davis
Mark Davis
originally posted by Mark Davis:
hmmm..Name a great sparkler from CA that has strong acidity (real, not added), complexity, and a low dosage?
....I can't think of one...
I take that back, I think I found something from California (or is it New York?) worth adding to the list:
Forget all that non or low-dose, natural or bio Champagne crap with brisk acidity...vertically pressed without malo.
This is where the action is:
:-)
-mark
I hate to say it (for a number of reasons, and he should probably reconsider his position now as a result), but I agree with Lou. More important than how I feel about the food, though, is the (for me) intolerable din of the restaurant at peak dining times. (Maybe I'm just getting old.) So I go in between, and treat it as an outstanding wine bar that happens to have food, if I want any. That alone suggests how I feel about the wine list. There's also the occasional opportunity to ask Mark himself a question, which wasn't always the case during the swell and crush of mealtimes.
I think that one problem is that of identity: if Mark had all Vietnamese wines on the list, no one aside from the occasional "where's my Cakebread?" have-it-my-way point-misser would object. It's that it's not an identifiable wine-region restaurant...not Italian, not French, etc....and that behaviors that people would not only tolerate, but embrace, in those establishments become somehow intolerable at the SD.
Also, there's this: do Olken and those who agree with him patrol the lists of California-cuisine restaurants for the proper representation of non-Californian wines? Somehow, I doubt it.
I guess that, for me, the specificity of the complaint is what makes it impossible to countenance. Is Olken also objecting to the menu at The Slanted Door with equal pique? "Sure, it's perfectly fine modernish Vietnamese, but do you mean to tell me Phan can't find a cous-cous or a pizza recipe good enough to put on the list? Where's the sushi? Where's the bacon cheeseburger?" To my knowledge, you will find no one who thinks that Phan can't say, "this is my cuisine, these are the boundaries, I'm not making linguini with clams, I'm not the Cheesecake Factory, please accept my invitation to go somewhere else if you want something other than what I make," and yet somehow it's unacceptable for Mark to set the same boundaries for the wine list? Absurd.
I admit I still don't. Aren't there enough California wines on enough lists in and around the city? Is there nowhere else for the thirsty zin-craving masses to drink, at all?But I can see why people are rather miffed at the (sometimes) total lack of California wines on the list.
I think that one problem is that of identity: if Mark had all Vietnamese wines on the list, no one aside from the occasional "where's my Cakebread?" have-it-my-way point-misser would object. It's that it's not an identifiable wine-region restaurant...not Italian, not French, etc....and that behaviors that people would not only tolerate, but embrace, in those establishments become somehow intolerable at the SD.
Also, there's this: do Olken and those who agree with him patrol the lists of California-cuisine restaurants for the proper representation of non-Californian wines? Somehow, I doubt it.
I guess that, for me, the specificity of the complaint is what makes it impossible to countenance. Is Olken also objecting to the menu at The Slanted Door with equal pique? "Sure, it's perfectly fine modernish Vietnamese, but do you mean to tell me Phan can't find a cous-cous or a pizza recipe good enough to put on the list? Where's the sushi? Where's the bacon cheeseburger?" To my knowledge, you will find no one who thinks that Phan can't say, "this is my cuisine, these are the boundaries, I'm not making linguini with clams, I'm not the Cheesecake Factory, please accept my invitation to go somewhere else if you want something other than what I make," and yet somehow it's unacceptable for Mark to set the same boundaries for the wine list? Absurd.
Levi Dalton
Levi Dalton
David Edelstein recently wrote the following for New York Magazine:
"But theres a price to pay for watching an audience so attentively, for striving to find a too-harmonious balance between bathos and clownishness, for flattering and spoon-feeding instead of leading people somewhere they havent been. When that audience moves on (or dies out), the works dont evolve. They remain a product of their era and placeforever of their time instead of perpetually new."
Edelstein was referencing the works of the playwright Neil Simon. However, I think the sentiment expressed also applies well to wine list writing. Of course a published play is a static entity. But when you develop a wine list you develop a cellar. It continues in time.
"But theres a price to pay for watching an audience so attentively, for striving to find a too-harmonious balance between bathos and clownishness, for flattering and spoon-feeding instead of leading people somewhere they havent been. When that audience moves on (or dies out), the works dont evolve. They remain a product of their era and placeforever of their time instead of perpetually new."
Edelstein was referencing the works of the playwright Neil Simon. However, I think the sentiment expressed also applies well to wine list writing. Of course a published play is a static entity. But when you develop a wine list you develop a cellar. It continues in time.
See, this confirms my worst suspicions: that over here we're just total hicks wine-wise, what with our pretentious Riedel, Spiegelau and Schott-Zwiesel glasses even in local taverns.originally posted by mlawton:
And I find it very annoying that at restaurants in Europe, I always get my white wine in an ice bucket. I thought it was because they pegged me as an American who wouldn't know any better and liked my white wine to taste like tap water.
Then again, maybe bringing the ice bucket along automatically and then letting you decide what you want to do with it is just one of those quaint remnants of service from a bygone era in European restaurants...
Tom Glasgow
Thomas W Glasgow
The Cellarist on the SF Gate (Chronicle) reports on the same issue as Asimov. Didn't notice Olken commenting there. The focus of the article is more on price, but he has some interesting comments on a generational divide amongst Cali. wine drinkers.
Again, I am in no way suggesting that the list at SD be changed. I'm the last one to suggest drinking CA wine, wherever one may be.
But, as I understood the critique, it is not just that Mark was choosing foreign wines. Rather, it was that Mark was trumpeting the list as one that went well with the cuisine because of low alcohol and high acid and these folks were saying that such options existed in CA, despite the stereotype. So the point is not that Mark needs to change his list to please the CA folks but that people who claim that the only place to find these wines is in Europe are wrong. Which seems like a reasonable critique to me.
Although I still buy over 96.382% European wine.
But, as I understood the critique, it is not just that Mark was choosing foreign wines. Rather, it was that Mark was trumpeting the list as one that went well with the cuisine because of low alcohol and high acid and these folks were saying that such options existed in CA, despite the stereotype. So the point is not that Mark needs to change his list to please the CA folks but that people who claim that the only place to find these wines is in Europe are wrong. Which seems like a reasonable critique to me.
Although I still buy over 96.382% European wine.
Levi Dalton
Levi Dalton
originally posted by Rahsaan:
Again, I am in no way suggesting that the list at SD be changed. I'm the last one to suggest drinking CA wine, wherever one may be.
But, as I understood the critique, it is not just that Mark was choosing foreign wines. Rather, it was that Mark was trumpeting the list as one that went well with the cuisine because of low alcohol and high acid and these folks were saying that such options existed in CA, despite the stereotype. So the point is not that Mark needs to change his list to please the CA folks but that people who claim that the only place to find these wines is in Europe are wrong. Which seems like a reasonable critique to me.
Although I still buy over 96.382% European wine.
Low and alcohol and high acid do not guarantee high quality, nuanced flavors, and good value for the money. Within the parameters some discernment is perhaps required.
originally posted by Levi Dalton: Within the parameters some discernment is perhaps required.
Of course. Isn't that always the case. Who said anything about randomly choosing low alcohol high acid wines.
Mark Davis
Mark Davis
originally posted by Rahsaan:
Again, I am in no way suggesting that the list at SD be changed. I'm the last one to suggest drinking CA wine, wherever one may be.
But, as I understood the critique, it is not just that Mark was choosing foreign wines. Rather, it was that Mark was trumpeting the list as one that went well with the cuisine because of low alcohol and high acid and these folks were saying that such options existed in CA, despite the stereotype. So the point is not that Mark needs to change his list to please the CA folks but that people who claim that the only place to find these wines is in Europe are wrong. Which seems like a reasonable critique to me.
Although I still buy over 96.382% European wine.
...and, while we buy mostly European wines, it would be nice if the style and food friendly characteristics we prefer existed here in quantity.
I personally hope there are some that I am not aware of...
It's tough if you also fold price into your thinking.originally posted by Mark Davis:
I personally hope there are some that I am not aware of...