NWR: Euro at $1.26 vs dollar today.

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
The interest rate used to calculate the forward/future premium/discount is the risk-free rate of each currency, i.e. treasury bills of each central bank. For your real life example above, you would have to use your Euros to buy French govt. 90 day paper, thus approximating the yield used to calculate the premium.

If you can't buy such paper with 4000 Euro and have to settle for checking account interest rates, obviously you will get hurt, but that doesn't change the principle that the forward rate is impervious to supply & demand or expectations for price behavior. That only affects spot.

But our argument was precisely about first my situation and second that of wine importers, who I expect are in situations analogous to mine (they don't buy government bonds, they buy currency; if I'm wrong about this, I then withdraw that argument). It wasn't about bankers trading with each other. And, so, of course, it does change the principle with regard to such individuals.

Both you and most wine importers would be taking positions too small for the forward market, but it would be easy for either to open a margin account at a futures broker, post $10,000 margin, and buy a EUR futures contract. Round trip commission would be maybe $35, and that's the ONLY cost of hedging.

From a financial standpoint, buying currency is equivalent to buying government paper because it's presumed that the cash won't sit under a mattress but be invested in a risk free instrument of that currency. So that expectation is built into the pricing, and anyone who doesn't do it is giving away interest income (and that's what one does when one deposits in a bank account, which pays peanuts).

With stock index futures, or physical commodities like sugar and coffee, it's different because you don't earn any interest from going long one currency's interest rate stream, you only pay interest to whoever is financing your purchase (on margin). So differentials will tend to be higher than those for a currency future because, other things equal, the interest rate you pay will not be offset by an interest rate that you receive (with stock futures, there is dividend yield, but it's basically negligible).
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
I'm kind of sorry I asked about this now, I didn't think the topic was this complicated.

One thing I've learned: I wouldn't want to cross Oswaldo at a dark trading desk.

Actually, Ian, the answer remains pretty much what it was; buying forwards for an importer is a good way either to have expenses be predictable or, to bet that the price one gets today will be better than the price one gets in 3 months. No one really has argued about this. There have been two parts of the argument:

1)Granted that the prices of forwards will sooner rather than later, remain in lock-step with spot prices, do speculations ever occur. I pursued this as a matter of interest, because Oswaldo seemed to say it could not happen, which seems counter-intuitive to me and to conflict with my limited experience with equities. I take SF Joe to have explained the principle and Cole to have explained how the principle works and still accounts for speculation, which turns out to be the same way as in the case of the equities market and removes my surprise. I'm happy to think I was just misinterpreting Oswaldo in taking him to suggest that the price relations were in an absolutely steady and invarying relationship. None of this has any relationship to what an importer might do since they won't move enough money to do more than accept a market modulated bid or offer one.

2)Because forwards are sometimes slightly less than spot, I said that there could be advantages or disadvantages to buying forwards vs. buying spots. Oswaldo vigorously contested this on the principle that those differences were merely differences in interest rates and it wouldn't matter what one did. And, with regard to how those prices arrive where they are, he's right. I find Cole's explanation, again, clearer, and more in accord with previous ones I have been given, but nevertheless, grosso modo, as they say, he's right. I equally vigorously disputed him on the basis that individuals with bank accounts don't trade bonds but cash and those forward differences, regardless of what they represented in the international market place represented absolute differences to the individuals involved. Assuming importers to bank money and not exchange government bonds, I take my example of my own case to be the operant one here, though Oswaldo may still disagree. I doubt that importers do attend to this, but I can think of situations where they ought.

As to the actual question, we know that Dan Kravitz buys forwards and Nicolas Mestre does not.

So all in all, I'd say a profitable exchange.
 
originally posted by Cole Kendall:
Hey, Osvaldo, I know someone looking for some out of the money long term puts on T Bonds...any offers?

No longer ITB, made just enough to retire, now I just drink and drive (Jonathan crazy)!

Are we all ready to move forward to the next stage in the discussion? About how we can buy a call and sell a put to synthetically create a hybrid that behaves like a forward?
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
originally posted by Cole Kendall:
Hey, Osvaldo, I know someone looking for some out of the money long term puts on T Bonds...any offers?

No longer ITB, made just enough to retire, now I just drink and drive (Jonathan crazy)!

Are we all ready to move forward to the next stage in the discussion? About how we can buy a call and sell a put to synthetically create a hybrid that behaves like a forward?

As long as you promise to stop before we get to convexity and prepayment risk.
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
originally posted by SFJoe:

....

If everyone agreed that the euro was going to fall over the coming months it would already have done so.

....

Rational expectations! There's a joke about this: two economists are walking down a side walk when one exclaims: "Look, someone's dropped a $20 bill!" As he stoops to pocket the money, the other one says "Don't bother, someone's already picked it up."

I always heard it as "if was real someone would have already picked it up."

But I suppose it works either way.
 
You must have had a different international monetary theory professor. Economists always were a disputatious lot, relative to wine drinkers.
 
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