2006 LAnglore (Eric Pfifferling) Comeyre Ctes du Rhone

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa: the more naked a bunch of wines are, the more they would reveal whatever common denominators are shared by all terroirs and all vinifera grapes...

Here my internalized Rahsaan says: but a bunch of people in uniform (i.e. & e.g., all wines made by Rolland) probably look more similar, despite their differences, than a bunch of naked people.
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My internalized Rahsaan has a different response.

A) Who said the goal of wine appreciation was revealing the common denominators shared by all terroirs and all vinifera grapes. Some might say it is exactly the opposite.

B) None of that is even relevant unless you can prove that one type of wine is naked and the other is wearing a uniform. I'm not sure you can do that.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
My internalized Rahsaan has a different response.
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Glad you have one too.

originally posted by Rahsaan:A) Who said the goal of wine appreciation was revealing the common denominators shared by all terroirs and all vinifera grapes. Some might say it is exactly the opposite.
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Nobody said that.

originally posted by Rahsaan:B) None of that is even relevant unless you can prove that one type of wine is naked and the other is wearing a uniform. I'm not sure you can do that.
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I am likening natural wines to naked people and interventionist wines to dressed up people. One may find that analogy useful, as far as it goes, or one may not. But it doesn't have to be proven.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
I am likening natural wines to naked people and interventionist wines to dressed up people. One may find that analogy useful, as far as it goes, or one may not. But it doesn't have to be proven.
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This is definitely an old argument but I don't see why new oak is more interventionist than carbonic maceration. Neither are very subtle in their effects on the wine.

I have no problem with the term 'natural wine' because we're never going to find perfect labels. As long as we don't take it too seriously/literally.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
I am likening natural wines to naked people and interventionist wines to dressed up people. One may find that analogy useful, as far as it goes, or one may not. But it doesn't have to be proven.
Click to expand...

This is definitely an old argument but I don't see why new oak is more interventionist than carbonic maceration. Neither are very subtle in their effects on the wine.

I have no problem with the term 'natural wine' because we're never going to find perfect labels. As long as we don't take it too seriously/literally.
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I agree, which is why I am focusing on the passive stuff, not the active. Boy, your internalized Rahsaan really needs some brushing up. Maybe you can take a refresher with the man himself, now that he's living in New York. While he still has time, because pretty soon he will be drowning in diapers, initially the old-fashioned kind, then disposable, after capitulation.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
What is an example of a "passive" reason why natural wines would taste similar?
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That's where the naked people analogy comes in: there are certain commonalities across all vinifera grapes and all terroirs (they all have two legs, two arms, one head, etc.) that can be obscured by winemakers "doing" stuff to the wine in the caller (dressing it in a long skirt so you no longer see that it has two legs, etc.). The idea that I find intriguing, and that is what I got from reading Thor's piece, is that NOT doing stuff makes wines taste more similar. I don't know if I understood him correctly, and, if I did, I don't know to what extent it's true, but it runs counter to what I had previously presumed, which was that natural winemaking would exacerbate differences.
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

That's where the naked people analogy comes in: there are certain commonalities across all vinifera grapes and all terroirs (they all have two legs, two arms, one head, etc.) that can be obscured by winemakers "doing" stuff to the wine in the caller (dressing it in a long skirt so you no longer see that it has two legs, etc.). The idea that I find intriguing, and that is what I got from reading Thor's piece, is that NOT doing stuff makes wines taste more similar.
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I guess we're not getting anywhere. Because I thought we just agreed that natural winemakers and interventionist winemakers ARE BOTH doing things. One is using carbonic maceration and the other is using new oak (to take the caricature).

Maybe the more important thing they don't do is add sulfur. Which is perhaps an even more widespread and core natural winemaking technique than carbonic.

Either way, it still seems like the conversation is based on the premise that natural winemakers are less interventionist. And as I said, I'm fine with using those terms for convenience, as long as we don't actually believe them. Because we're going to have a hard time really quantifying and proving their veracity.
 
Yes, I see the semantic difficulties. Since organic and BD say almost nothing about what happens after you pick, I think many people interpret natural to mean, in essence, no SO2 until bottling so that the full panoply of yeasts can generate complexity. Whether one ferments with floating cap, submerged cap or carbonic (and its variations) doesn't seem to have any bearing on being natural.
 
I don't understand why filling a steel tank up with CO2 gas is seen as non-interventionist. It seems quite the opposite to me. Am I misunderstanding the method?
 
Some people toss in some dry ice, which is of course much more natural.

In truth, a little ordinary fermentation from crushed grapes at the bottom of the tank will get you your CO2 in fairly short order. The modern improvement avoids mishap, as Eric said.
 
I don't necessarily think carbonic maceration is more "interventionist" than pigeage. They are both human-induced processes. But, I guess the argument is (and this is not my argument) carbonic tends to result in wines that taste the same, and thus obscure terroir and variety characteristics. In that sense, carbonic is a form of overpowering make-up, like new oak.

Since my experience with carbonic begins and ends in Beaujolais, I don't know whether this is true or not.
 
CM can make swilleriffic wines under the right circs. You get more esters and less structure. For immediate guzzling in hipster wine bar, it can be just the ticket.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
CM can make swilleriffic wines under the right circs. You get more esters and less structure. For immediate guzzling in hipster wine bar, it can be just the ticket.
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I haven't tried the Pfifferling wine yet, but this description makes me think of Axel Prufer's Temps des Cerises. Swilleriffic.
 
Hello,
Since 3 years, I taste & drink the Pfifferling productions (+/-15 bottles a year - ros, red not the white). It's hard to buy (1 month in the Paris cavistes) but non-expensiv (13 to 16 euros). Imho, it's one of the most exiting wine in the south rhone : freshness, tension, acidity, purity, balance, low SO2... Many vignerons take the road to Tavel to understand "why" and "how".
Best regards
pierre-alain benoit
ps 1 : the sentence about the che is a little bit "low cost"
ps 2 : More in Le Monde
 
originally posted by pab:

ps 1 : the sentence about the che is a little bit "low cost"
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Sorry about that pab.
I sware I'll try to use "tension" next time...

IMHO, carbonic maceration whether done with CO2 gas or dry ice is :

- a very modern way of making wine.
- A terroir killer as noticed by Jules Chauvet himself during the trials made in the early 60s. The conclusion of this work was something like : do it if you got shitty terroir, otherwise avoid if you are not in the beaujolais.
 
originally posted by Brzme:
avoid if you are not in the beaujolais.
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Eric,

If you will indulge a question or two, what is it about the Beaujolais that makes it a good place to do CM? Low phenolics and high acid in gamay?

Separately, doesn't Didier B. use a little dry ice in the CRB SB? Is that just to inhibit oxidation?
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Brzme:
avoid if you are not in the beaujolais.
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Eric,

If you will indulge a question or two, what is it about the Beaujolais that makes it a good place to do CM? Low phenolics and high acid in gamay?

Separately, doesn't Didier B. use a little dry ice in the CRB SB? Is that just to inhibit oxidation?
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Joe,

I am not saying that CM necessary makes bad wines outside Northern Beaujolais. I am just a little perplex to see that CM is still presented as the epitome of traditional natural winemaking!!! And semanticaly the distance is short from natural to "true terroir expression".

I have a very little experience with CRB sauvignon since Didier has been using it and won't be able to evaluate its precision in terms of terroir expression, but I can speak for myself, and all my trials with CM having nice even spectacular wines in terms of aromatic expression but very poor as terroir is concerned (those who have tried side by side my regular roussanne and the CM version of it know what I am talking about). Brezeme syrah in CM (I tried it partially in 2004, 2005 and 2006) is a very nice "vin de picole", probably full of "tension" so dear to pab. But where is Brezeme???

Why is it working in beaujolais???
I don't know for sure. Probably a good match between aromatics due to CM and natural aromas of gamay on granit or something like that. But don't forget that one of the great specificity of CM is the high proportion of malic acid degradation partially into alcool during the intracellular "fermentation". Quite a perfect winemaking trick when you have quite unripe high malic acid grapes at least 6-7 vintages out of 10 (during the 50s or 60s...).
But CM on low malic grapes like grenache in southern rhone for making a terroir driven wine? Well, definitely not for me. For a nice little "vin de soif" you can drink right from the fridge, without paying too much attention to precision, yes sure.

Don't take this too seriously. You know I am drinking quite a bit of these wines
 
originally posted by Brzme:
But don't forget that one of the great specificity of CM is the high proportion of malic acid degradation partially into alcool during the intracellular "fermentation". Quite a perfect winemaking trick when you have quite unripe high malic acid grapes at least 6-7 vintages out of 10 (during the 50s or 60s...).
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Forgive my ignorance, but I see a problem with putting whole clusters of unripe or high malice grapes into CM and winding up with the greenness, pyrazines, etc. that one gets from unripe stems. Or have I missed something?
I assume one cannot separate out the stems once CM is complete and alcoholic fermentation begins, right?
Best, Jim
 
Jim,

in a pure carbonic, there is no contact between the stems and the juice, at least no more than for a white in direct pressing. Again, carbonic was designed for taking care of unripe grapes from cool climates.
 
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