2006 LAnglore (Eric Pfifferling) Comeyre Ctes du Rhone

[Joel Stewart]

PS - Does semi-carbonic then only semi-obscure terroir? (Meant both semi-jokingly and semi-seriously.)

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

Just had a very pleasant 2007 Faiveley Macn Rouge by the glass while killing time at a local wine bar. It tasted so natural and light and zippy and happy and unpretentious that it just had to be semi-carbonic. The sommelire had no idea whether it was pigeage or not. This cuve is so lowly that it's not even mentioned in the Faiveley site, so I couldn't check. But if you're working with less than optimal material and want to copy that natural, Clairol blonde look, with freshness and instant quaffability, carbonic and semi-carbonic is the way to go.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
The general solution at that time was in fact to define in historical and traditional terms, with sufficient tolerance of looseness to avoid absurdity, which means, as well, sufficient tolerance of looseness as to make the definition a rule of thumb and not either a scientific term or a philosophical concept.

In this spirit, I'm happy to let the debate over CM be hashed out by bumping up noses against walls.

Let's do the bump one more time: It seemed to me that vine-manipulation techniques were generally better-accepted by the bored denizens than fruit- or juice-manipulation techniques. Does it appear that way to you?

 

[SFJoe]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
The general solution at that time was in fact to define in historical and traditional terms, with sufficient tolerance of looseness to avoid absurdity, which means, as well, sufficient tolerance of looseness as to make the definition a rule of thumb and not either a scientific term or a philosophical concept.

In this spirit, I'm happy to let the debate over CM be hashed out by bumping up noses against walls.

Let's do the bump one more time: It seemed to me that vine-manipulation techniques were generally better-accepted by the bored denizens than fruit- or juice-manipulation techniques. Does it appear that way to you?

Not necessarily. "Phenolic ripeness" is the spawn of the devil in the new world, and you have only to search for Sparky Marquis to appreciate the true moral abyss of vine-manipulation.

I don't cede your general point at all. Sins of the vineyard are the issue in modern Bordeaux, in modern California pinot and syrah, in many of the most egregious spots.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by SFJoe:
I don't cede your general point at all. Sins of the vineyard are the issue in modern Bordeaux, in modern California pinot and syrah, in many of the most egregious spots.

Moreso than sins of vinification (which fermentations occur when and where, with which yeast-mix, with additives) or sins of elevage (200% oak)?

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

originally posted by SFJoe:
I don't cede your general point at all. Sins of the vineyard are the issue in modern Bordeaux, in modern California pinot and syrah, in many of the most egregious spots.

Moreso than sins of vinification (which fermentations occur when and where, with which yeast-mix, with additives) or sins of elevage (200% oak)?

Jeff,
Isn't this a bit like debating the relative demerits of crucifixion vs. immolation?

Mark Lipton

 

[SFJoe]

JG argues one over the other, I would say that you can do completely adequate damage in the vineyard and follow with pristine cellar technique and still make horrifying wine.

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by MLipton:
Jeff,
Isn't this a bit like debating the relative demerits of crucifixion vs. immolation?

Maybe. (Exploring the topic was kinda sorta the point of asking.)

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

originally posted by SFJoe:
I don't cede your general point at all. Sins of the vineyard are the issue in modern Bordeaux, in modern California pinot and syrah, in many of the most egregious spots.

Moreso than sins of vinification (which fermentations occur when and where, with which yeast-mix, with additives) or sins of elevage (200% oak)?

Jeff,
Isn't this a bit like debating the relative demerits of crucifixion vs. immolation?

Mark Lipton

To those about to die this is a crucial issue. And we are about to drink.

 

[Kevin Roberts]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by MLipton:

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

originally posted by SFJoe:
I don't cede your general point at all. Sins of the vineyard are the issue in modern Bordeaux, in modern California pinot and syrah, in many of the most egregious spots.

Moreso than sins of vinification (which fermentations occur when and where, with which yeast-mix, with additives) or sins of elevage (200% oak)?

Jeff,
Isn't this a bit like debating the relative demerits of crucifixion vs. immolation?

Mark Lipton

To those about to die this is a crucial issue. And we are about to drink.

"The jump to hyperspace is somewhat upleasantly like being drunk."

"What's so unpleasant about being drunk?"

"Ask a glass of water."

I just reread Hitchiker's Guide for the first time in years, and was reminded of this (one of my favorites) quote.

Cheers,

Kevin

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

I believe that Eric, on Wine Berserker, did define natural wine in terms of what happened in the cellar rather than what happened in the vineyard.

Much as I often share Joe's objection to overripeness, particularly in Bordeaux, CA wines and indeed numbers of Rhone wines, it can become a taste criterion--Keith's objections to CdP, for instance. Moreover, global warming does play a role here. Two CdP vintners this summer, neither of whom are known for producing confitured CdP and both of whom told me that they would be happy to be able to go back to 13% CdP that was the norm in the 80s and 90s, said that if they picked grapes that would produce that level, they would have to pick them underripe, given the regularity of hot, dry weather since 98. One of them does what he can to reduce confiture, but still gets 14.5% wine.

Also, from the perspective of defining intervention in terms of non-natural things humans might do (and I do think that that is a contradiction in terms, assuming one defines things that humans get close to as non-natural, its own kind of problem), for vineyard practices, I would certainly nominate burying horns filled with manure, and various other biodynamic practices. But, whereas I think bd is a crock, so to speak, I don't think it necessarily produces spoofed wines (although it certainly can once the wine gets into the cellar and there is an increasing connection now that bd has become a rage as well as a crock).

I think that Eric's distinction therefore has pragmatic value, even though I share Joe's sense that it won't cover the gamut of horribles. Another reason for supporting a tradition based, imperfect definition.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
Moreover, global warming does play a role here. Two CdP vintners this summer, neither of whom are known for producing confitured CdP and both of whom told me that they would be happy to be able to go back to 13% CdP that was the norm in the 80s and 90s, said that if they picked grapes that would produce that level, they would have to pick them underripe, given the regularity of hot, dry weather since 98. One of them does what he can to reduce confiture, but still gets 14.5% wine.

This is supposedly the problem in the Andes too, and in other hot (esp. new world) climates. Compared to cooler climes, the ratio of heat to light is unbalanced in favor of the former. Winemakers there claim that they simply have no alternative but to make superripe wines because if they picked earlier, the tannins would be too green and the wines would taste (even more) awful. And then the have to acidify to compensate, and so on.

 

[Sharon Bowman]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
To those about to die this is a crucial issue. And we are about to drink.

"We who are about to drink salute you" just doesn't have the same punch.

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by SFJoe:
JG argues one over the other, I would say that you can do completely adequate damage in the vineyard and follow with pristine cellar technique and still make horrifying wine.

By the same token, though, one can take great grapes from a great terroir and spoofulate them all to Hell and gone in the cellar. Is that wine any less horrifying? (Now it's my turn to split hairs, Jeff)

Mark Lipton

 

[Steven Spielmann]

Surely, though, natural doesn't mean good. The 'natural' monicker shouldn't rule out disgusting, gloppy 16% wines picked at maximum phenolic ripeness if they are made in a non-interventionist way with ambient yeasts.

 

[Brézème]

originally posted by Steven Spielmann:
Surely, though, natural doesn't mean good. The 'natural' monicker shouldn't rule out disgusting, gloppy 16% wines picked at maximum phenolic ripeness if they are made in a non-interventionist way with ambient yeasts.

I love this one. It applies to so many of the new sourthern france natural wines hipsters!. Natural grenache gris at 15.8% without sulfur, with horse and with plenty of hate again old historical producers especially if they have grown organic for decades...

But "C'est de la carbo. Ca se picole tout seul!" The new slogan in every natural wine bar over here. I hope someone will translate. I can't.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by Brzme:

originally posted by Steven Spielmann:
Surely, though, natural doesn't mean good. The 'natural' monicker shouldn't rule out disgusting, gloppy 16% wines picked at maximum phenolic ripeness if they are made in a non-interventionist way with ambient yeasts.

I love this one. It applies to so many of the new sourthern france natural wines hipsters!. Natural grenache gris at 15.8% without sulfur, with horse and with plenty of hate again old historical producers especially if they have grown organic for decades...

But "C'est de la carbo. Ca se picole tout seul!" The new slogan in every natural wine bar over here. I hope someone will translate. I can't.

I'm guessing "carbo" means cm, but I don't know. Ca se picole tout seul!" works almost literally in English: it practically drinks itself! Or less literally, "it just slides right down!"

 

[Joel Stewart]

originally posted by Brzme:

originally posted by Steven Spielmann:
Surely, though, natural doesn't mean good. The 'natural' monicker shouldn't rule out disgusting, gloppy 16% wines picked at maximum phenolic ripeness if they are made in a non-interventionist way with ambient yeasts.

I love this one. It applies to so many of the new sourthern france natural wines hipsters!. Natural grenache gris at 15.8% without sulfur, with horse and with plenty of hate again old historical producers especially if they have grown organic for decades...

But "C'est de la carbo. Ca se picole tout seul!" The new slogan in every natural wine bar over here. I hope someone will translate. I can't.

So was it cooler before, or did the historical producers pick less ripe? Other course of action?

 

[Jeff Grossman]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
I think that Eric's distinction therefore has pragmatic value, even though I share Joe's sense that it won't cover the gamut of horribles.

Pragmatic value is just fine. I have no need to make the perfect the enemy of the good enough.

Another reason for supporting a tradition based, imperfect definition.

So, here's my problem with this way of saying it: We no longer have the kind of weather that our traditional wine-makers did. It's changed. We probably should, too, a little. What Would Gentaz Do?

(Now go back and replace the word "weather" with "market". Then with "insect life". Et cetera.)

 

[Rahsaan]

What Would Gentaz Do?

Retire?