11 mad

I don't think Alinea is quite like either Manresa or Can Roca. There are only a very few restaurants worth comparing it to in terms of specific cooking/presentation style...El Bulli, sure, and Moto, and probably the Fat Duck (I haven't been there). But not even WD-50 or the gang in Donostia-San Sébastian aren't doing quite what Alinea and that small set of peers is doing. (I don't mean qualitatively, though that's part of it too, I mean the whole theater of the thing, as Jeff notes.)

At Can Roca, or Arzak, or Manresa, or even most of the Mugaritz/Akelarre-type places, the majority of what you're served is 1) recognizable as a variant of a form of something you've eaten before, even if all the ingredients or techniques aren't, and 2) usually served on a plate or some other familiar serveware. The idea of all or nearly all of what you're served being largely unfamiliar in both form and presentation is limited to just a few places, and Alinea's in that group.

At Manresa, for instance, you're going to be served the Arpège egg, and you're going to get hunks of animal, and you're going to get vegetables that look like vegetables and are the vegetables they look like, and you're going to get recognizable starches, and so forth. At, say, Mugaritz, which is somewhere in the middle of this continuum, you're going to get the weirdness like the rocks that are actually potatoes and the beef tartare that's actually watermelon, and even the charcoal is just a black coating on an otherwise very familiar cube of meat, but you're also going to get salt cod in a sauce and a slice/pile/cylinder of chocolate something or other that looks like another pastry chef might have executed it. At the really transformational places, you might not get a single thing you recognize by sight...or if you do, you probably won't trust what you see until you eat it...and you might see only a handful of things-on-plates all night.

The whole set of restaurants here, as with long/formal tasting menus of any sort, or true street food, really aren't for everyone. Some will never like them, for one reason or another. And Alinea and its actual peers demand an incredible amount of attention and participation, so that even those who are inclined to like or at least appreciate this sort of thing -- the Bourdain example comes to mind -- can be turned off by this specific execution. It's a very challenging way to dine.

I read Jeff's report and I see what I've seen from a lot of people who've gone there: while he does say whether he likes or dislikes given dishes, it's more like he's attended a combination of a university seminar, an art show at which he's almost entirely unfamiliar with what he's seeing, and at both of those events there was very high-end catering and a conversation with his fellow attendees to conduct. I have only read maybe a half-dozen reports in which I feel the diner really relaxed and threw themselves into a more purely hedonistic and emotional response, as they might at many other restaurants, and I think all of those have been from people who go to restaurants like Alinea a lot.

From everything you've written, Jean would hate it, and I'm not entirely certain you'd find it beyond an interesting intellectual exercise. I could be wrong, but that's my guess; if Can Roca was only tolerated as a treat for you, Alinea would be torture for your primary dining companion.
 
I caught most of his 100th episode of No Reservations the other night in which he returns to Paris. Apart of drinking what conspicuously appeared to be "Natural Wine", he and Eric Ripert had to go and out Chateaubriand. Although I only ate there once back in 2005, prior to the current rock star chef, it was then and I assume now still a wine geek mecca. Has anyone been recently? It must be good as it appeared that the meal had Ripert in tears.
 
He did seemed moved, didn't he?

I'm happy to see that Le Comptoir is going to be even harder to get into, now. Oh well.
 
originally posted by Thor:
He did seemed moved, didn't he?

I'm happy to see that Le Comptoir is going to be even harder to get into, now. Oh well.
I called Le Comptoir in late Feb/early April and they were booked into September.
 
originally posted by lars makie:
originally posted by Thor:
He did seemed moved, didn't he?

I'm happy to see that Le Comptoir is going to be even harder to get into, now. Oh well.
I called Le Comptoir in late Feb/early April and they were booked into September.

I didn't think they took reservations.
 
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by lars makie:
originally posted by Thor:
He did seemed moved, didn't he?

I'm happy to see that Le Comptoir is going to be even harder to get into, now. Oh well.
I called Le Comptoir in late Feb/early April and they were booked into September.

I didn't think they took reservations.
They leave a few spaces open for non-hotel guests. I guess you can also try to do a walk-in.
 
originally posted by JasonA:
On the subject of Bourdain...I caught most of his 100th episode of No Reservations the other night in which he returns to Paris. Apart of drinking what conspicuously appeared to be "Natural Wine", he and Eric Ripert had to go and out Chateaubriand. Although I only ate there once back in 2005, prior to the current rock star chef, it was then and I assume now still a wine geek mecca. Has anyone been recently? It must be good as it appeared that the meal had Ripert in tears.

I was there in July. Amusingly enough, Ren Mosse and Herv Villemade were eating there together. (There was a Loire tasting at Aug that weekend.)

The wine list is great.

I am less convinced by the food (as are friends of mine who've been there at other times). I was surprised, watching this episode, by the raptures of the two at table. Nothing really comes together, and the preparations are often too brut. Some favas. Some sugar snap peas. Mackerel with an emulsion. Tastes that are raw and cerebral/incoherent. Nothing really touched me at all.

Though the crowd is too model for food, if that's yer bag.
 
originally posted by VLM:
originally posted by lars makie:
originally posted by Thor:
He did seemed moved, didn't he?

I'm happy to see that Le Comptoir is going to be even harder to get into, now. Oh well.
I called Le Comptoir in late Feb/early April and they were booked into September.

I didn't think they took reservations.

Only for dinner. Lunch is walk-in.
 
I didn't think they took reservations.
Lunch isn't just walk-in, it's line up-and-wait; woe betide you should you miss the first seating. It brings back horrible memories of Olives or the East Coast Grill circa early-90s, in a way, but the slog to get to dinner has never seemed so crucial to start planning it so far in advance.

I quite enjoy the midday food. Tte de veau carpaccio (not really carpaccio, but still)...what's not to love?
 
I was at Comptoir last month for dinner, during a no-res August period. My client and I arrived at 7:15 or so, and sat immediately. People who were 15 minutes behind us waited an hour or more.

The food is fab.
 
originally posted by Thor:
I don't think Alinea is quite like either Manresa or Can Roca. There are only a very few restaurants worth comparing it to in terms of specific cooking/presentation style...El Bulli, sure, and Moto, and probably the Fat Duck (I haven't been there). But not even WD-50 or the gang in Donostia-San Sbastian are doing quite what Alinea and that small set of peers is doing. (I don't mean qualitatively, though that's part of it too, I mean the whole theater of the thing, as Jeff notes.)

At Can Roca, or Arzak, or Manresa, or even most of the Mugaritz/Akelarre-type places, the majority of what you're served is 1) recognizable as a variant of a form of something you've eaten before, even if all the ingredients or techniques aren't, and 2) usually served on a plate or some other familiar serveware. The idea of all or nearly all of what you're served being largely unfamiliar in both form and presentation is limited to just a few places, and Alinea's in that group.

Fair enough, Thunder Wielder. My comparison was really focused on the format of large-scale tasting menus, which is the crux of the problem for Jean (my comment about the "precious" nature of the presentation being quite distinct from that, though perhaps also shared by Jean). You do touch on a point that's been raised by a friend of mine who dines out more frequently (and more poshly) than I: does the cooking have "soul"? One reason I ate at Can Roca rather than their more lauded neighbor is that my friend had assured me that the Can Roca brothers hadn't sacrified their Catalan-ness at the altar of modernity/innovation, and I did leave Can Roca appreciating that point. Likewise, Manresa plays with a recognizable form of cooking and, as you correctly point out, doesn't attempt to push the envelope overmuch.

Having never eaten at El Bulli, Fat Duck or Alinea (or Moto or WD-50)*, I can't and won't cast any aspersions on the soulfulness or lack thereof in their cooking. I will mention, though, that my 40th birthday was celebrated at Charlie Trotter's and I left there feeling impressed with the cooking, presentation and service, but underwhelmed by the overall experience because I couldn't detect any unifying theme to the cooking other than showcasing some mighty fine ingredients. I can contrast that experience with my 30th birthday dinner (do we detect a trend here?) at Chez Panisse, which had a distinct enough Provenal vibe to keep me happy. This is one reason that I won't hesitate to essay Mr. Achtaz's next venture (or Next venture, as you will), as that has the potential to play to our preferences and still showcase the talents of a fabulous chef.

I suspect that you're also correct about our putative reactions to Alinea, but -- as stated -- we're unlikely to provide experimental validation for your hypothesis.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by MLipton:
I suspect that you're also correct about our putative reactions to Alinea, but -- as stated -- we're unlikely to provide experimental validation for your hypothesis.
Is that good enough for you to serve as an expert witness in the other thread?
 
My comparison was really focused on the format of large-scale tasting menus, which is the crux of the problem for Jean
As noted upthread, you either like that sort of thing or you don't. And even if you do, you might not be in the mood for it at a given moment. Some people love the grand dégustation laid out before them on expensive paper, some want Plotnickiesque above-and-beyond happy endings (hopefully no table showers precede), some (me) adore only-the-chef-knows sequencing (this could be Craigie on Main or O Ya or Erbaluce, this could be Ko or Masa, this could be Hisop or Extebarri or Arzak or Mugaritz, but the point is that it's my absolute favorite way to dine...by which I don't mean the same thing as "eat"), and some think it's all tiring bullshit and would rather have a perfect omelet and a perfect salad. Sometimes, that person is the same person, but tomorrow. Sometimes it's me.

There's no question that long menus are exhausting. Not just fatigue, but there's digestive trauma. And anticipatory trauma: the idea that I must have dessert, even with a quick prix fixe lunch, or I must have four desserts over an extravagant tasting menu dinner, quite often leads me to choose something else, even though I'd rather have the tasting menu. Were I not into their sort of thing, I'd look at Alinea's menu and run the other way.

does the cooking have "soul"?
I don't think that question's separable from what the diner brings to the table, cliché abuse intended. Soul is a two-way conversation between diner and kitchen, not an inherent quality of the food. And technique doesn't contradict soul. Bach's not less soulful than Blind Lemon Jefferson, and I don't think Grant Achatz is less passionately invested in his food than Victor Arguinzoniz.

One reason I ate at Can Roca rather than their more lauded neighbor is that my friend had assured me that the Can Roca brothers hadn't sacrified their Catalan-ness at the altar of modernity/innovation
It's a difficult argument to make, because El Bulli's iconoclasm is decontextualized to begin with. In any case, unless El Bulli is the only place in Cataluña one is going to eat, I suspect one can get proper Catalan cuisine without too much hassle. I could see the argument being made that, say, earth essence sauces and monochromatic desserts (not to mention the wine list) at Can Roca aren't exactly the soul of Catalan cuisine, either. I wouldn't make the argument, because I think it leads nowhere and it's probably wrong, but I can at least understand the objection. Achatz, though, doesn't have that "problem," unless people are clamoring for tradtional Chicago cuisine in Pop-Rocks form or something.

I will mention, though, that my 40th birthday was celebrated at Charlie Trotter's and I left there feeling impressed with the cooking, presentation and service, but underwhelmed by the overall experience because I couldn't detect any unifying theme to the cooking other than showcasing some mighty fine ingredients.
Again, I think this sort of thing is idealized as a conversation, but it isn't always a conversation in practice. If one person in a conversation is doing all the talking -- and in this case, it seems Chef Trotter's kitchen was -- it's not a very enjoyable conversation. Thus, to enjoy it, one has to view it not as a conversation, but as a lecture. And sometimes...at least, I hear this from people...lectures are rewarding. They might be full of revelations (as at Alinea), or they might be full of insightful commentary on familiar ideas (as at Manresa), or they might just express a well-worn idea in a particularly beautiful way (as at Etxebarri). It has been a very, very rare tasting menu that I felt I could approach as a conversation. I had one, a few weeks ago, at Craigie on Main. I've had a lot of them at Charles Draghi's establishments. But elsewhere? Very, very rarely. On the other hand, some of the lectures -- Masa, Extebarri -- were like holy revelation.

I, too, look forward to Achatz's next venture, which sounds most interesting.

we're unlikely to provide experimental validation for your hypothesis
And you know how upsetting that is to me. (emoticon)
 
from an emp bar tender:

The article was a bit wrong- there is food at the bar, just none of the snack items we used to have. Only appetizers and entrees, with a bit bigger selection. Its nice! I like it so far. The vibe is a bit different, but you can still wear jeans and the martinis will never go away.
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
originally posted by MLipton:
I suspect that you're also correct about our putative reactions to Alinea, but -- as stated -- we're unlikely to provide experimental validation for your hypothesis.
Is that good enough for you to serve as an expert witness in the other thread?

URL?? My expert witnessing duties are fairly extensive at the mo, having been retained by a bigshot NYC law firm in a patent dispute, but I'm always open to other offers, albeit at my standard rate of pay.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by Thor:
I didn't think they took reservations.
Lunch isn't just walk-in, it's line up-and-wait;

I quite enjoy the midday food.

We had a late lunch and didn't have to wait long at all. Best meal I had last trip to Paris and we gorged so thoroughly that we canceled dinner reservations at Severo.

The food we ate was pretty rustic and we had several bottles of hipster wine, including the only bottle of Bornard that I've enjoyed.
 
That's an interesting review that accurately addresses the positives and negatives of the change, aside from whatever it says about the quality of the actual food. It's the information I'd want. Alas that none of the comments (as of the point I read the post) rise to the qualitative level of the original post.

While we're here, could someone translate this for me?

lunch that purports to be a tasting menu, but is really more of a prix fixe
Is he implying shorter? Cheaper? Larger portions? I'm at a loss.
 
originally posted by Thor:
That's an interesting review that accurately addresses the positives and negatives of the change, aside from whatever it says about the quality of the actual food. It's the information I'd want. Alas that none of the comments (as of the point I read the post) rise to the qualitative level of the original post.

While we're here, could someone translate this for me?

lunch that purports to be a tasting menu, but is really more of a prix fixe
Is he implying shorter? Cheaper? Larger portions? I'm at a loss.

I'd imagine that what is meant is that there are fewer courses than one would expect in a modern day tasting menu, something more in line with a traditional French menu (in the French sense of the word).

Mark Lipton
 
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