Jeebus at the Offlines'

Precision is too simple of a goal

OK. But a better wine is not too simple a goal. And this could have been better in several ways, the most obvious being a general lack (contextually within the category) of precision or definition. If I want German riesling that lacks both, I can drink Eroica.

And besides, 2006 is 2006. Looking for precision in 2006 is just silly talk.

I believe I was responding to the wine itself, not to a vintage generalization.

And yes, I lick Donnhoff's boots just like you lick Jean Trimbach's.

I've no interest in Jean's footwear. Pierre's...

I don't find Zidarich simpler than Radikon. I haven't had an Anfora Gravner yet, so I can't comment there.

I have. I prefer Radikon to the other two, while I go back and forth on Gravner, but...while I understand what Levi's saying about "simpler," just as he doesn't think a quest for precision is sensible with the above-referenced Dnnhoff, I don't think that's the right concept for differentiating the Zidarich. Both Radikon and Gravner have a soup of occasionally coherent, occasionally conflicting, frequently overwhelming elements that are, it must be admitted, obscurative. It's why some people overtly dislike the wines. Zidarich isn't more simplistic, it leaves its elements -- despite some similarities in construction -- more naked and exposed, like riesling can be full of complexity or an unadorned pillar of raw iron, and it's good either way.

Like you, in some ways I do find the Zidarich a more compelling multi-glass drink, probably because of this very quality. On the other hand, I've sat with both of the others (and in the case of Radikon, several vintages of several wines) and gone through no small number of glasses...but I think that Theresa falls more into your camp, or perhaps beyond it: "wow, but too much" by the time quantities exceed those for tasting.
 
originally posted by Thor:
Zidarich 2005 Carso Vitovska (Friuli Venezia Giulia) Cloudy as hell, and full of red fruit, soda water, and salted lemongrass. Such incredible texture (like balsa wood, says someone). Stunning, but breathtakingly unconventional. (6/08)

Stick to Friuli, kid.

(nod to Brad)
 
So Thor, just so I understand correctly, it's not okay to understand a wine in the context of the vintage, but it is okay to impose outside conceptual criteria on a wine that reflects an individual's preference (ie. precision) rather than an understanding of the region where that wine in question is from? If you impose Mosel/Trimbach criteria on the Riesling of the Nahe, then of course both Diel and Donnhoff will come up short, especially in a year like 2006.

Looking forward to your epic response.

Best,
Levi
 
Oh, come on guys - I was just getting my popcorn ready. Remember "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee"? Where is Don King? Let's get it on!
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
dAngerville 1997 Volnay Clos des Ducs
Is this that same 97 vintage that so many were poo-pooing as overripe and (god forbid) "Californian"? I thought so...

Have you found many other exceptions to that characterization?

Yes, although I admit that I haven't had a 97 for a couple of years now. On the other hand, it would be no surprise if Angerville was one of the distance runners.
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Christian Miller (CMM):
dAngerville 1997 Volnay Clos des Ducs
Is this that same 97 vintage that so many were poo-pooing as overripe and (god forbid) "Californian"? I thought so...

Have you found many other exceptions to that characterization?

While I wouldn't say many there have been a few. Dujac, Gouges and Mugnier come to mind immediately. I'm not surprised that d'Angerville would be there though I've never had any of their 1997s. I'd like to think that everyone on this board realizes that the reason it's called a vintage generalization is because there are specific exceptions. But in almost any circumstance I'd rather have a '98 than a '97 of the same wine. Gouges might be my only exception to that (though I am admittedly operating from a much smaller sampling than many Erisians).
 
originally posted by Jay Miller:
But in almost any circumstance I'd rather have a '98 than a '97 of the same wine. Gouges might be my only exception to that (though I am admittedly operating from a much smaller sampling than many Erisians).

Is that because you didn't like the 98 Gouges wines very much or because you really liked the 97 ones?
 
originally posted by Rahsaan:
originally posted by Jay Miller:
But in almost any circumstance I'd rather have a '98 than a '97 of the same wine. Gouges might be my only exception to that (though I am admittedly operating from a much smaller sampling than many Erisians).

Is that because you didn't like the 98 Gouges wines very much or because you really liked the 97 ones?

I feel really weird from generalizing from 2 bottles but a '98 Gouges Vaucrains was very backward and obviously needed years of sleep. Hard to judge. A '97 Gouges Vaucrains was one of only 2 bottles of mature Gouges I've ever had (the other was an '85). If not quite peaking it was certainly close to it. 15 years from now I'm sure the '98 will be the better of the two but I don't know if it will be any better than the '97 is now.
 
15 years from now I'm sure the '98 will be the better of the two but I don't know if it will be any better than the '97 is now.

Ok. I think I understand.

Am looking into buying more Gouges, so I was curious.
 
originally posted by mlawton:
Oh, come on guys - I was just getting my popcorn ready. Remember "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee"? Where is Don King? Let's get it on!

Damn you and your incessant need for bread & circuses.

The thing is, I just sorta shrugged, because I took Levi's response about as seriously as I took Brad's. So it was hard to get all het up. But I'll give it a shot, just for your entertainment...

So Thor, just so I understand correctly, it's not okay to understand a wine in the context of the vintage, but it is okay to impose outside conceptual criteria on a wine that reflects an individual's preference (ie. precision) rather than an understanding of the region where that wine in question is from. If you impose Mosel/Trimbach criteria on the Riesling of the Nahe, then of course both Diel and Donnhoff will come up short, especially in a year like 2006.

The rest of the thing is, I have no idea what Levi's talking about here. He makes up a bunch of stuff I didn't say or mean, and of which there is no evidence in the actual tasting notes, attributes it to me, and then argues against it. This reminds me of Coad's story about Brad's blind bottles always representing the climax to some long-harbored grudge that no one but Brad has been harboring, and about which no one but Brad is aware. He might as well have accused me of judging the Dnnhoff by Uruguayan tannat criteria for all the sense his argument made.

But just so there's clarity all 'round and Levi can be at greater peace with himself, I did neither of the transpositive things of which he accuses me. I judged the wine on its own merits and then suggested why I liked, but did not passionately adore, it. If it's Levi's suggestion that Nahe rieslings, or Dnnhoff, or wines from the Krtenpfuhl, or 2006s, are inherently capable of possessing precision and/or definition, then we're going to have to disagree on all points.

Now, if I had written that it lacked the precision and definition of a Mosel (or a Trimbach), he'd have a complaint. I didn't write that. I didn't write anything even vaguely like that.

And really, Levi complaining that tasting notes' language might reflect "an individual's preference" is ludicrous on the face of it, unless the notes are free of any and all opinion. Since Levi well knows that mine never are, I don't understand his newfound objection to their form. If he wants purely objective tasting notes, I suggest he read...well, I don't know, but I'm sure there's someone who foolishly thinks they're objective.

So let me restate: I thought the Dnnhoff would have been better if it had more precision and definition. I noted that these lacks kept it, in my subjective opinion, from being "very good," and left it at just "good." That this is an artifact of any external criterion -- vineyard, region, producer, vintage -- is a reason, but it's not a refutation. A hypothetical wine may be acid-deficient, laden with underripe tannin, and a chore to drink; because this hypothetical wine is a 2003 from somewhere in France doesn't mean it's not those things, it just explains why those things were more likely than the alternative.

Perhaps if I had appended to the note a treatise on the mesoclimate of the Krtenpfuhl vineyard in 2006, it would have mollified Levi. But really, I just wanted to post some notes on some wines I tasted at the Lawtons'. If Levi wants to send me a check, I'll get to work on that treatise for him. Otherwise, he's out of luck.
 
originally posted by Thor:
I thought the Dnnhoff would have been better if it had more precision and definition. I noted that these lacks kept it, in my subjective opinion, from being "very good," and left it at just "good." A hypothetical wine may be acid-deficient, laden with underripe tannin, and a chore to drink; because this hypothetical wine is a 2003 from somewhere in France doesn't mean it's not those things, it just explains why those things were more likely than the alternative..

I think this is the crux of it, and while Levi may have overstated your case, you may also be overstating his objection.

Whether or not you want all wines to taste like Trimbach, apparently Levi feels that you are imposing too narrow a criterion of "precision" and "definition" on your judgement of the wine. Apparently Levi thinks this wine is "very good" and is capable of giving that judgement to wines with varying levels of precision and definition.

In some respects this just means that Levi has more flexible standards than Thor for evaluating wine and an argument could be made for the importance of both perspectives.

Personally I lean towards the stricter judgement, but then I only buy wine for myself. I understand Levi is a professional wine person so he may be forced into appreciating a wider range of wines for the sake of his customers.
 
that's more like it. Is this when James Carville says "uh....he's right"?

Oh, and by the way, I wasn't sure you and Levi would come through so we bought tickets to "Bellobration" tomorrow at the Gahden.
 
Lumped in with Brad. That's rough. I state for the record that I REALLY liked the 1982 CSH that Brad so cavalierly tossed in the dump bucket.

I just look at it this a'way: what Thor seems to be looking for and what the winemaker seem to be looking for don't meet at this particular wine, and the space between those two gazes has been increased, again in this particular case, by both the site in question and the vintage concerned. And I think that some context for understanding that might be of help (it's not just what is in the glass, etc.) Donnhoff doesn't aim for percision, as least as far as I understand it. He wants wines floating down on gossamer wing. Fewer winemakers are interested in that, as a percentage, so far as I can tell, so it seems to be less well-understood as a goal. I'm really just trying to point that out. And also that 2006 and Nahe is an equation that does not generally add up to percision tuned wine. Maybe I brought up those points in too slapdash a fashion. If so, I apologize.

I'm not advocating anyone run out and buy the wine in question. I'm more interested in a discussion about why such a wine might taste such a way. Thor: if I had the money, the check would certainly be in the mail.

I am totally open various tasting note formats, and I usually agree quite closely with Thor's tasting notes, in fact. Nor do I live in a Straw Man factory, so far as I know.
 
originally posted by Levi Dalton:
Donnhoff doesn't aim for percision, as least as far as I understand it. He wants wines floating down on gossamer wing. Fewer winemakers are interested in that, as a percentage, so far as I can tell, so it seems to be less well-understood as a goal.

It may be less well understood as a goal, but Donnhoff is certainly not lacking in fans and I wouldn't exactly call him an under-appreciated winemaker.

Interesting point however, and it may explain why I have never been motivated to pursue Donnhoff with my time and money, even if I see that the wines are delicious. I enjoy gossamer wing as much as the next fellow, but I want my ethereal wines to also be precise. Hence my love of the Saar.
 
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