Vajra load

in response to the remarks about judging by what they make...yes, i agree but the Kye is a troubled wine. It may in fact suffer from TCA pre bottling (Ask Thor his humble opinions) since it is made in the same barrel year in, year out. Yeah, they choose to make it...its a good effort but that wine often shows much more variation and variability than the other wines they make(in a negative way)...So my point is that wine is just an outlier to what i think is a sound, stable house of piedmont. If you knew the people you wouldnt tell them to suck it.

just sayin.
 
dont make me dig it up...it was like a year ago, i thought you remarked about how you've had many troubled bottles of the Kye. I had opened a magnum of it and the discussion was made that it maybe a cuvee, barrel, etc issue. Since i have noticed an inordinate number of kye TCA.
 
Hmmm. Yeah, it was a discussion of the 2000 I had at Osteria dei Binari in Milan, and it forced me to go back through my notes and discover a lot of references to TCA or one of its cousins in that bottling.

I worry about the decline of my memory sometimes, but then I just shrug and have some more Scotch.
 
originally posted by Matteo Mollo:
in response to the remarks about judging by what they make...yes, i agree but the Kye is a troubled wine. It may in fact suffer from TCA pre bottling (Ask Thor his humble opinions) since it is made in the same barrel year in, year out. Yeah, they choose to make it...its a good effort but that wine often shows much more variation and variability than the other wines they make(in a negative way)...So my point is that wine is just an outlier to what i think is a sound, stable house of piedmont. If you knew the people you wouldnt tell them to suck it.

just sayin.
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My bottle was not TCA afflicted, FWIW. Extraction and ripeness afflicted, yes.

I didn't suggest that anyone could or should suck it. The folks at A Conterno are lovely and I would presume nothing less of the folks at Vajra. What I suggested was that A Conterno's 100% new oak cuvees could suck it and my opinion is, for better or worse, unswayed.
 
originally posted by Josh Beck:
The folks at A Conterno are lovely and I would presume nothing less of the folks at Vajra. What I suggested was that A Conterno's 100% new oak cuvees could suck it and my opinion is, for better or worse, unswayed.
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We visited with Aldo's son Giacomo a year ago and I do remember finding the 2006 Bussiador way too oaky and, at 15%, just a bit tropo. But he was very proud of it, saying they had been among the first to plant chardonnay in the region, so the vines were already 30 years old. But the cru Barolos (05 Colonello and Cicala and 04 Romirasco) were all indeed lovely, particularly the last.

The winery as a whole seemed a bit bipolar, maturing the barolos in traditional botti and everything else in new barriques, as if trying to be both things to both people. So, I came away attributing the oakiness of the chard to the use of barriques instead of botti, though new oak is, of course, the other half (or more) of the equation.

Some grapes like Baga and Nebbiolo can "handle" new oak in the very specific sense of absorbing/not acquiring its taste while benefiting from the natural micro-oxygenation. Not chardonnay, or any other white grape, I believe.
 
Oswaldo, I disagree. Chardonnay, to my taste, handles oak as well as any other grape, if planted in the right places. Whether that includes the Piedmont I do not have enough experience to comment sensibly.
 
If by "handles" you means "wears it well," then I agree entirely. I was using "handles" in the limited sense of fully absorbing new oak flavor, something I didn't think any white varietal was capable of doing, at least not until many many years have passed in bottle.

Among other things, this impression comes from something I heard from Luis Pato, that grape tannins polymerize very differently (faster and smoother) in the presence of wood tannins, so the grape tannins would have to be quite formidable for the wood tannins to fully polymerize. But how the leap occurs from absorbing new wood tannin to absorbing new oak flavor, I cannot say...
 
originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
If by "handles" you means "wears it well," then I agree entirely. I was using "handles" in the limited sense of fully absorbing new oak flavor, something I didn't think any white varietal was capable of doing, at least not until many many years have passed in bottle.
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Well, AFAIK no wine integrates new oak without bottle aging. FWIW, I think that Grand Cru Chablis does this as well as any wine. A bottle of Le Clos from a top producer will taste crisp and minerally after 10 years in bottle despite whatever amount of new oak it sees.

Mark Lipton
 
varietal
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*cough*

I think if one must oak a dry white, chardonnay is your grape (certainly amongst the popular crew), though there's also evidence that sauvignon blanc and/or smillon can handle it, and not just in France. But -- at least from my tastings -- they never actually integrate it like a Chablis might, they just learn to live with it in a mutually beneficial way.

Meanwhile, I understand what you're trying to say about certain red grapes and new/small oak. I don't really think I agree on the subject of nebbiolo, though. It can be used very well, certainly, and even stylishly where use is a bit more lavish. But the result is almost always a marked wine.
 
Without being pedantic regarding absorbing vs. integrating vs. handling...

I am of the opinion that Chardonnay is one of, if not the best, grapes for marrying well with oak. Obviously how much and to whom is a bag of worms. Pinot can also do quite ok in many cases, not so much in many cases. I guess I think bdx wines can do well but I don't drink them.

It goes without saying, there is a big difference between 100% new oak on DRC Montrachet or Leflaive Chevy vs. 100% new oak on RRV or Piemonte Chardonnay. I guess everyone can sort out for themselves what they prefer.

I am very much not a fan of new oak on Nebbiolo. Sometimes it can integrate it and wear it well if it was done with some restraint, but I don't think I ever prefer it or thought that the wine was better for it.
 
originally posted by Yixin:
Oswaldo, I disagree. Chardonnay, to my taste, handles oak as well as any other grape, if planted in the right places. Whether that includes the Piedmont I do not have enough experience to comment sensibly.
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I agree completely. In fact, I think there are many white wines where the oak component is very pleasant. I include white Burgundy and Loire chenin in this.

I think that oak with nebbiolo is problematic. When mixed with wines that have been through a short, hot, potentially roto'd ferment, then it has been a disaster. Valentini wines have been aged in new wood for a long time and can be very nice. I tend to think that new wood is problematic for nebbiolo.
 
originally posted by Josh Beck:
Without being pedantic regarding absorbing vs. integrating vs. handling...

I am of the opinion that Chardonnay is one of, if not the best, grapes for marrying well with oak. Obviously how much and to whom is a bag of worms. Pinot can also do quite ok in many cases, not so much in many cases. I guess I think bdx wines can do well but I don't drink them.

It goes without saying, there is a big difference between 100% new oak on DRC Montrachet or Leflaive Chevy vs. 100% new oak on RRV or Piemonte Chardonnay. I guess everyone can sort out for themselves what they prefer.

I am very much not a fan of new oak on Nebbiolo. Sometimes it can integrate it and wear it well if it was done with some restraint, but I don't think I ever prefer it or thought that the wine was better for it.
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I like everything Josh says here, except this:

Chevy
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for which he should be executed. Politburo?
 
Lurkers have reprimanded me for my cheap shot against a noble white grape, so I withdraw the remark.

But bojo and etc. are unworthy of this board.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
Lurkers have reprimanded me for my cheap shot against a noble white grape, so I withdraw the remark.

But bojo and etc. are unworthy of this board.
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Lurkers don't bother to post, but use the PM function?
 
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