Soil and Wine Flavor

originally posted by Oliver McCrum:
The current state of play scientifically appears to be (not having had time to listen to the podcast yet) that effects of soil are limited to drainage and the presence of the obvious main nutrients.
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That seems an extreme position.

I wonder, for instance, whether soil effects are not also mediated through mycorrhizal populations, which doubtless have pH and trace element preferences.

It's a subject that has only recently become reasonable to study.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Oliver McCrum:
The current state of play scientifically appears to be (not having had time to listen to the podcast yet) that effects of soil are limited to drainage and the presence of the obvious main nutrients.
Click to expand...
That seems an extreme position.

I wonder, for instance, whether soil effects are not also mediated through mycorrhizal populations, which doubtless have pH and trace element preferences.

It's a subject that has only recently become reasonable to study.
Click to expand...

To be clear, it's not my position, it's my best sythesis from talking to people. There seem to be an endless number of complications, mycorrhizae for one, irrigation for another (I was talking to a geologist who did a profile of a vineyard in Napa that was predominantly alluvial, but was irrigated from water from a 600-foot-deep volcanic structure).

I am approaching this from the other perspective, which is that certain soils tend to be associated with certain flavors even if other factors vary, and a reasonable person has to wonder whether the soil is somehow creating those flavors.

As Yixin points out, Cristiano from Sella talks a lot about their soils being acidic, which he thinks is very important to the distinctiveness of their wines.
 
originally posted by Oliver McCrum:

I am approaching this from the other perspective, which is that certain soils tend to be associated with certain flavors even if other factors vary, and a reasonable person has to wonder whether the soil is somehow creating those flavors.
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Could someone be enough of a blockhead to doubt limestone, for instance?
 
originally posted by Oliver McCrum:
Chaad,

I don't import wines that are oaky or point-chasing, so there won't be a problem.

My new Vulture producer, in fact, was once told by an American importer that her wines weren't oaky enough.
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Ouch! Oliver, I CERTAINLY was not implying that you might import such wines; I had no idea you were only using your own imports, and don't forget, we share import privileges of that Vulture producer, Grifalco, so for me to suggest your aglianico is oaky or point-chasing would be quite ridiculous!

With regards to soil, I'd take a look at how vitric the subsoils are in the volcanic regions, and check for correlation to quality there. I'd suspect that vigorous, deeper rooting rootstocks (e.g. 110R or 1103P such as are used for aglianico) might fare better in those environments.

Does any of that correlate to pinot noir grown in Oregon, on the volcanic Jory soil there? I dunno.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Oliver McCrum:

I am approaching this from the other perspective, which is that certain soils tend to be associated with certain flavors even if other factors vary, and a reasonable person has to wonder whether the soil is somehow creating those flavors.
Click to expand...
Could someone be enough of a blockhead to doubt limestone, for instance?
Click to expand...

So you saw The Trip, then?
 
originally posted by chaad thomas:
originally posted by Oliver McCrum:
Chaad,

I don't import wines that are oaky or point-chasing, so there won't be a problem.

My new Vulture producer, in fact, was once told by an American importer that her wines weren't oaky enough.
Click to expand...
Ouch! Oliver, I CERTAINLY was not implying that you might import such wines; I had no idea you were only using your own imports, and don't forget, we share import privileges of that Vulture producer, Grifalco, so for me to suggest your aglianico is oaky or point-chasing would be quite ridiculous!

With regards to soil, I'd take a look at how vitric the subsoils are in the volcanic regions, and check for correlation to quality there. I'd suspect that vigorous, deeper rooting rootstocks (e.g. 110R or 1103P such as are used for aglianico) might fare better in those environments.

Does any of that correlate to pinot noir grown in Oregon, on the volcanic Jory soil there? I dunno.
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No problem, Chaad.

If I didn't have enough wines in my book to illustrate the theme, I would include others, but I have tons. I think a Spanish importer who imports a bunch of wines from the Canary Islands may come with some examples, too
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Oliver McCrum:

I am approaching this from the other perspective, which is that certain soils tend to be associated with certain flavors even if other factors vary, and a reasonable person has to wonder whether the soil is somehow creating those flavors.
Click to expand...
Could someone be enough of a blockhead to doubt limestone, for instance?
Click to expand...

If I understand the argument correctly they are saying that there is no scientific explanation for any effect of soil chemistry on wine flavor. To quote from one paper that was published in the Journal of Wine Research, 'A direct geochemical influence on wine flavour is widely inferred but remains undemonstrated...The notion of being able to taste the vineyard geology in the wine...is a romantic notion...wholly anecdotal...scientifically impossible.' It may be that many of these writers are so irritated by what they take to be sloppiness in wine writing that they throw the baby out with the bath water, in that they dismiss the idea that there is any literal 'minerality' in wine but don't thoroughly examine the idea that indirect effects are possible. Indeed it's hard to see how you would avoid assuming some kind of effect, if you're a wine taster.
 
originally posted by Oliver McCrum:
'A direct geochemical influence on wine flavour is widely inferred but remains undemonstrated...The notion of being able to taste the vineyard geology in the wine...is a romantic notion...wholly anecdotal...scientifically impossible.'
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Identifying the phenomenon is different from understanding the mechanism, and it would be nice to have both sewn up, but this seems willfully obtuse, or maybe these guys never taste good wine. And "scientifically impossible" is a very bold statement to make about a subject where you have admittedly incomplete understanding.

My occasional forays into the literature suggest that wine chemistry does not always attract talent of, say, the Lipton caliber.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:

Identifying the phenomenon is different from understanding the mechanism, and it would be nice to have both sewn up, but this seems willfully obtuse, or maybe these guys never taste good wine. And "scientifically impossible" is a very bold statement to make about a subject where you have admittedly incomplete understanding.

My occasional forays into the literature suggest that wine chemistry does not always attract talent of, say, the Lipton caliber.
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'

Merci, mon ami. D'accord.

Mark Lipton
 
I'm relieved to hear you both say it. There is a certain 'Dr. Science' quality to some of this. Just because they don't know why something's true doesn't make it not true.
 
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