Dissed by Pegau

originally posted by Rahsaan:
Either Oswaldo was intentionally being cheeky or he hadn't properly done his homework.
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Kinda neither. We were walking towards the car, at the end of the lunch break when all the shops close, when suddenly the Pegau doors swung open not twenty yeards from where our car was parked. I would have gone in to any big name, just for the karmic hell of it. In a sense, Pegau chose me, a prank played by mischievous giggling cherubs in the empyrean. No time for homework: I knew Pegau was famous, a Parker darling, and a powerhouse, that's about it. Once inside, I was pleasantly surprised to discover that they never use new wood and don't filter, so felt emboldened to seek, within their personality, the wine closest to mine. Alcohol was obviously not the best approach, but it's the one I've found least unreliable in the absence of knowledge.

Carl, I imagine the 02 is the most dilute, so it was actually an informed supposition, and a subtle subchapter of the diss (the one I came closest to admiring) that the gent would figure that 02 would suit me best.
 
originally posted by scottreiner:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

I don't know of any 12.5% CdPs.
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rayas?
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No access to information. If we are guessing, I'd bet it's regularly higher, but I'd be glad to hear to the contrary from people with bottles of vintages since say 1998 to refer to. For the purposes of discussion, if the bottle says 12.5, I'll believe it, with the usual provisos.

Back in the mid 90s, Pegau and a lot of others listed 13.5, so it's possible that Rayas listed lower then too. But really, without sounding like Parker, and being ready to accept my ignorance on correction, it's hard to imagine bringing in a 100% Grenache wine grown in a hot climate in at that rate.
 
And I'm all but certain that Domaine des Tours routinely comes in over 14%, even in years like 2001 and 2004. Can't believe Rayas would be lower.

Edited to add: 1988, 1994 and Y2K Rayas are listed at 14%
 
originally posted by Jeff Grossman:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
No access to information.
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A quick Image Google finds a good picture of a 2003 (14%) and a 1990 Reserve (14%).
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And if you believe that 14% alcohol number the 2003, then I have some land in Florida I would like to sell you...
 
originally posted by scottreiner:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

I don't know of any 12.5% CdPs.
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rayas?
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:-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I know you guys would love chateauneuf to be made out of menu pineau, but seriously, rayas at 12.5%...
We are talking about grenache at low altitude in southern rhone, here.
Mourvedre could be 12%. Carignan maybe. But grenache,...

Modern style chateauneuf is more about desteming/extraction, low acidity, and syrah than much higher level of alcohol than 15 years ago.
Mouillage is part of the Cambie process, so a lot of these very modern wines have alcohol under control in the mid 14%-15%. The shift is probably around 1% over the past 20 years. Like anywhere else in France.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by Brézème:
originally posted by SFJoe:
Eric,

What's "mouillage" in a Chateauneuf context?
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Water addition
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He adds water to the vinified wine? Doesn't that work against the extraction he wants?
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Sounds more like during the fermentation. Nothing wrong with some Jesus units in the new castle of the pope.
 
originally posted by David M. Bueker:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:
originally posted by Brézème:
originally posted by SFJoe:
Eric,

What's "mouillage" in a Chateauneuf context?
Click to expand...

Water addition
Click to expand...

He adds water to the vinified wine? Doesn't that work against the extraction he wants?
Click to expand...

Sounds more like during the fermentation. Nothing wrong with some Jesus units in the new castle of the pope.
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I'll wait for Eric on this. But during fermentation or vinified, adding water I would think works against the Cambie style. Since manifestly it doesn't, I'm really interested in how this works.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

I'll wait for Eric on this. But during fermentation or vinified, adding water I would think works against the Cambie style. Since manifestly it doesn't, I'm really interested in how this works.
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The practice is common enough among similarly-textured wines from Napa. Crazy-ripe grapes with passerillage watered back to still-high alcohol levels.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

I'll wait for Eric on this. But during fermentation or vinified, adding water I would think works against the Cambie style. Since manifestly it doesn't, I'm really interested in how this works.
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The practice is common enough among similarly-textured wines from Napa. Crazy-ripe grapes with passerillage watered back to still-high alcohol levels.
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Why not just pick at sane ripeness levels and ferment? Or does this account for that weird combination of glossiness and jamminess?

He can't be adding that much water back in though since his wines, at least the signature ones, do have higher than Pegau alcohol levels.
 
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:


Why not just pick at sane ripeness levels and ferment? Or does this account for that weird combination of glossiness and jamminess?
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I think it's key. Gets the acid way down, too.

He can't be adding that much water back in though since his wines, at least the signature ones, do have higher than Pegau alcohol levels.
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You can pick a lot riper than Pegau does, I believe.

Since Brian Loring was just here, it reminds me of a thread he had on some board about a fermentation he did that started in the low 30s brix, and how water additions allowed him to get it close to dry.

So maybe the wine is 16%, but it might have been 18 without the Jesus.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:


Why not just pick at sane ripeness levels and ferment? Or does this account for that weird combination of glossiness and jamminess?
Click to expand...

I think it's key. Gets the acid way down, too.

He can't be adding that much water back in though since his wines, at least the signature ones, do have higher than Pegau alcohol levels.
Click to expand...

You can pick a lot riper than Pegau does, I believe.

Since Brian Loring was just here, it reminds me of a thread he had on some board about a fermentation he did that started in the low 30s brix, and how water additions allowed him to get it close to dry.

So maybe the wine is 16%, but it might have been 18 without the Jesus.
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There's yeast that ferments that high? This board is just the cat's whiskers for learning new horrorshow stuff.
 
In CA my understanding is that you over-ripen for both jammy flavor and soft tannins, then you have to add water otherwise the fermentation couldn't finish, then you de-alcoholise to reduce the 'burn.'
 
SFJoe answered for me and in a much better english.

The key point is aromas and texture. You don't get the same aromas or texture with a 18-19% grenache wattered back to 15.5% than if you picked at 15.5%. The first one has a good chance to get a 97-99 points the second one merely a 93-94 which means that the grower will have to drink most of it her/himself...

Acidification is almost always done side by side with mouillage. Gives you a total control on TA and pH.

This all about control. Texture, aromas, balance.

"les vignerons doivent apprendre à accepter leurs vins tel qu'ils sont, et non tel qu'ils voudraient qu'ils soient" Jules Chauvet.

Ahhh, good old Jules...

Joe, do you still have that link to a masterpiece from the Mollydooker guy using small fractionned amounts of SO2 during alcoholic fermentation in order to induce yeasts to produce glycerol instead of alcool? I heard they use this kind of trick too in Chateauneuf ( and Cote Rotie...) these days.
 
By the way, Marco De Bartoli in Sicilia has a home strain of native yeasts that ferment up to 18% of alcohol. Without innoculation.
 
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