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NWR: Searching for a College
- Thread starter Bill Lundstrom
- Start date
I would stay for college in the U.S. and try to plan for a junior year abroad, if international business continues to appeal. Undergraduate education is one of the few things the U.S. does better than other countries.
I think Mark gives sage advice. The biggest difference separates liberal arts colleges from research universities, Ivy or otherwise (and the Ivies, for that matter, are quite different from one another -- Princeton, Yale, and especially Dartmouth pay much more attention to undergraduates than Harvard, for example; Harvard beats them all for library resources). Having gone to a small liberal arts college, I don't think the bigger schools can match them for quality of instruction. Specialized programs, however, tend to suffer, so if you have to study late Byzantine basket weaving, a big place is pretty much a necessity. For international business, I would think a good school, with solid economics training, makes most sense. I don't think you need to worry about specialization at the undergraduate level, so research vs. liberal arts would come down more to a question of personal fit and comfort. I would ask who is teaching all those sections of Econ 101, World Civ, and the like. It matters who teaches those classes, and the level of the other students matters too. Those two things together go a long way towards a "better education." Everything else will sort itself out. One thing that can make public options more palatable are honors programs. Is that an option? You can get a great education at just about any big public university, if you're disciplined and know how to find people willing to help you. It will be a much bigger effort at a public research university than a small liberal arts college, which is set up to help you through.
For the individual schools, Georgetown, Hopkins, and Tufts come to mind, among the privates.
I think Mark gives sage advice. The biggest difference separates liberal arts colleges from research universities, Ivy or otherwise (and the Ivies, for that matter, are quite different from one another -- Princeton, Yale, and especially Dartmouth pay much more attention to undergraduates than Harvard, for example; Harvard beats them all for library resources). Having gone to a small liberal arts college, I don't think the bigger schools can match them for quality of instruction. Specialized programs, however, tend to suffer, so if you have to study late Byzantine basket weaving, a big place is pretty much a necessity. For international business, I would think a good school, with solid economics training, makes most sense. I don't think you need to worry about specialization at the undergraduate level, so research vs. liberal arts would come down more to a question of personal fit and comfort. I would ask who is teaching all those sections of Econ 101, World Civ, and the like. It matters who teaches those classes, and the level of the other students matters too. Those two things together go a long way towards a "better education." Everything else will sort itself out. One thing that can make public options more palatable are honors programs. Is that an option? You can get a great education at just about any big public university, if you're disciplined and know how to find people willing to help you. It will be a much bigger effort at a public research university than a small liberal arts college, which is set up to help you through.
For the individual schools, Georgetown, Hopkins, and Tufts come to mind, among the privates.
Tom Glasgow
Thomas W Glasgow
It's more like buying a house, very expensive to change your mind.
A bit of Disorderly thread has crept in. Bill's daughter is looking to do international business, not join an academic department. What are the backgrounds of international business people? Fork over some contacts for the young lady via pm.
A bit of Disorderly thread has crept in. Bill's daughter is looking to do international business, not join an academic department. What are the backgrounds of international business people? Fork over some contacts for the young lady via pm.
U
Unknown
Guest
originally posted by MLipton:
Good instruction in languages can be found at most Liberal Arts colleges
True, but there is only one Middlebury
originally posted by Tom Glasgow:
Bill's daughter is looking to do international business, not join an academic department. What are the backgrounds of international business people? Fork over some contacts for the young lady via pm.
I had thought to do the same, but really there is not so much useful advice to be offered to the HS junior. "Study hard!" "Study abroad!" Get plenty of work experience. Get summer jobs that are relevant.
But the best advice would be to get a broad base of studies.
Few kids today will have the same career for 10, 20, 30 years. It's not the nature of the modern world. The professors are actually the worst mental guides in this respect, since they have some of the last stable jobs in the economy. People have to learn lots of things and be prepared to make big changes.
Getting in on that 40-year career at Chrysler just ain't the way to go.
Sharon Bowman
Sharon Bowman
originally posted by SFJoe:
The professors are actually the worst mental guides in this respect, since they have some of the last stable jobs in the economy.
So true.
Though they are often helpfully dissuasive from their own path.
Steve Guattery
Steve Guattery
originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
originally posted by SFJoe:
The professors are actually the worst mental guides in this respect, since they have some of the last stable jobs in the economy.
So true.
Though they are often helpfully dissuasive from their own path.
I teach at a fairly large liberal arts college, though we label ourselves a university. A lot of my colleagues are concerned that job stability is on the way out. They think tenure is on on its last legs given the economic pressures on higher education and the relatively large pool of qualified people interested in academic careers. Yet many of them encourage their best students to go to graduate school. But that's a whole other discussion. So back to Bill's question:
There's a lot of good information in the thread above. Let me give you the perspective from a second-tier liberal arts college: The biggest drawback of private liberal arts colleges is the cost, though as has been noted you shouldn't look at the sticker price, but at the actual cost to admitted students. Read up on discount rates and look closely at school financial aid policies, which vary widely.
What liberal arts colleges can offer is a faculty focused on teaching. The emphasis is on small classes, access to professors, and undergraduate research. It's not necessarily a better education than one could get at a large university, but the process has a very different feel for the students.
I'll also note that I agree with Rahsaan on the issue of degree prestige. The network you get with your degree is not just the people you knew in school, but the people who graduated from that school before you and the people who've hired other graduates. My university has several employers who seek out our graduates because of the success of our previous graduates.
Finally, a little anecdotal information: I know a few people whose offspring have attended honors programs at big state universities, and who have been happy with the programs. I can't say a lot myself about them, but it's something to look into.
Bill, I'm away at the moment, but if you have any questions I might be able to answer, send me a message through the board or email (my email address should be easy to find on the web). My daughter is finishing up the process, though she applied mainly to universities in Canada, where she's in high school. As someone mentioned above, finding a place your daughter is comfortable with is critical.
Robert Dentice
Robert Dentice
Interesting thread and I thought I would add another perspective since you mentioned a possible interest in Business. Over my career I have been involved with recruiting efforts at McKinsey and three major Global Investment Banks. The reality is that if you want to work at one of these types of Firms you will not have a shot coming from a State School or many/most small Liberal Arts School simply because of numbers. I remember going through the stack of several hundred UPENN/Wharton Resumes (for 20 spots) where every kid had three years of internships (easily done through the Wharton Undergrad network), a high GPA, lots of extracurricular activities, awards, etc. you name it they did it or interviewing at MIT where every candidate on the schedule was a High School Valedictorian.
My advice would be to 1.) try to confirm that your daughter really wants to work in the corporate world through informational interviews or if possible an internship and assuming you think this is what she wants to do go for the school with the best combination of quality of eduction/name/track record of placing people in the corporate world that you can. There are some schools that are non-Ivy that have a great track record of placing people in Investment Banking that are non-Ivy (Lehigh and Washington U/Olin School of Business come to mind).
Feel free to PM with questions.
My advice would be to 1.) try to confirm that your daughter really wants to work in the corporate world through informational interviews or if possible an internship and assuming you think this is what she wants to do go for the school with the best combination of quality of eduction/name/track record of placing people in the corporate world that you can. There are some schools that are non-Ivy that have a great track record of placing people in Investment Banking that are non-Ivy (Lehigh and Washington U/Olin School of Business come to mind).
Feel free to PM with questions.
originally posted by Robert Dentice:
Interesting thread and I thought I would add another perspective since you mentioned a possible interest in Business. Over my career I have been involved with recruiting efforts at McKinsey and three major Global Investment Banks. The reality is that if you want to work at one of these types of Firms you will not have a shot coming from a State School or many/most small Liberal Arts School simply because of numbers. I remember going through the stack of several hundred UPENN/Wharton Resumes (for 20 spots) where every kid had three years of internships (easily done through the Wharton Undergrad network), a high GPA, lots of extracurricular activities, awards, etc. you name it they did it or interviewing at MIT where every candidate on the schedule was a High School Valedictorian.
My advice would be to 1.) try to confirm that your daughter really wants to work in the corporate world through informational interviews or if possible an internship and assuming you think this is what she wants to do go for the school with the best combination of quality of eduction/name/track record of placing people in the corporate world that you can. There are some schools that are non-Ivy that have a great track record of placing people in Investment Banking that are non-Ivy (Lehigh and Washington U/Olin School of Business come to mind).
Feel free to PM with questions.
This squares with my experience. I was taken aback when I went from a small liberal arts college to graduate school (in the '90s) to see the kind of opportunities the Ivy undergrads had, with recruiters from management consulting firms beating down their doors -- we didn't see that in the Great White North. I doubt that competition is as intense these days.
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
On the question of Ivies, the real question is private vs. public since even the private school at which I teach, which is no one's idea of prestigious, is pricey enough. Speaking generally, Delaware is a good school and will do well by your daughter. The other question is small vs. large (and here I mean classroom size, not size of student body). No matter what she studies, your daughter will benefit far more from close attention than she will from large lecture courses, no matter how brilliant the person doing the lecturing.
But if her interest in international business is real, this adds a different element to the situation as you will want a University with a serious school of International Studies, preferably one combined with a business school and foreign language departments that offer serious courses. Georgetown is the obvious pick here. AU also has these things. Middlebury is the obvious place for languages and a very good private school. I don't know if it will meet your daughter's other needs.
If she isn't set on a degree in IS, though, I'd let her choose the place she felt she would be most comfortable at and let her find her way. The number of freshman who come to AU to do one thing and end up doing another is surprisingly high.
I agree with Mark about Ivy undergraduate education and also agree with his exceptions of Brown and Dartmouth. Yale and Princeton do well by their undergraduates, though not as well. At places like Harvard and Cornell, you may not see the faculty that give them their names until you are a junior and even then not from closer than 50 feet away in large lecture halls.
But if her interest in international business is real, this adds a different element to the situation as you will want a University with a serious school of International Studies, preferably one combined with a business school and foreign language departments that offer serious courses. Georgetown is the obvious pick here. AU also has these things. Middlebury is the obvious place for languages and a very good private school. I don't know if it will meet your daughter's other needs.
If she isn't set on a degree in IS, though, I'd let her choose the place she felt she would be most comfortable at and let her find her way. The number of freshman who come to AU to do one thing and end up doing another is surprisingly high.
I agree with Mark about Ivy undergraduate education and also agree with his exceptions of Brown and Dartmouth. Yale and Princeton do well by their undergraduates, though not as well. At places like Harvard and Cornell, you may not see the faculty that give them their names until you are a junior and even then not from closer than 50 feet away in large lecture halls.
U
Unknown
Guest
Universities in England have the best wine cellars though.
Matt Latuchie
Matt Latuchie
originally posted by Cliff:
For the individual schools, Georgetown, Hopkins, and Tufts come to mind, among the privates.
For international business and language, George Washington University in DC offers some top rate programs in addition to an incredibly diverse array of overseas study options. I do believe, however, they're now the most expensive college in the US.
Sharon Bowman
Sharon Bowman
originally posted by .sasha:
Universities in England have the best wine cellars though.
I thought that was Scotland?
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
My 2 cents', Bill ...
+ 1 re: Joe's and Yixin's comments on peer environment, a major educational resource. Imho, for undergrad, diversity is as relevant as compatibility, and a point in favor of large state campuses. One tactic to try here would be visiting universities of interest, starting now and repeating over the next couple of years, to soak up both campus atmosphere and academic-adminstrative tone.
+ 1 re: Cliff's suggestion to attend a school with a junior year abroad, or comparable exchange program, especially since your daughter is interested in languages. Enormous learning opportunity.
Re: small liberal arts vs. large state schools, be alert to small programs nested within large schools, e.g., University of Michigan's Residential College, which may offer the benefits of both approaches. What a state school can offer, apart from cost advantages, is a large and diverse local universe of individuals and program resources for the independent-minded to explore.
Re: prestige, imho, the two-edged sword cliché applies. Will your daughter be happy/achieve her potential as a life-long member of an elite 'club,' or would she ultimately find such membership a limiting impediment?
Re: program focus, harkening back to Mark's emphasis on self-knowledge (learning style), if your daughter has any kind of an independent or creative streak, there's a strong case for an liberal arts undergrad approach. I've recently read luminaries Peter Drucker (business) and E.O. Wilson (Biology) beat the old horse about the value of laying down a broad, diverse educational foundation, prior to specializing. Over the long-run, the ability to innovate within a specialty is supported by familiarity with thinking in many different disciplines.
On the other hand, there are also some reputable joint BA-MA programs. Hopkins, for example, has a five-year curriculum, with its School of Advanced International Studies, leading to a joint degree, as well as a joint MA-MBA program, in collaboration with Wharton. Hopkins also has overseas undergrad study opportunities, fwiw, in China and Italy. University of Virginia has a five-year program leading to a joint BA-MPP, with emphasis on leadership.
Best of luck.
+ 1 re: Joe's and Yixin's comments on peer environment, a major educational resource. Imho, for undergrad, diversity is as relevant as compatibility, and a point in favor of large state campuses. One tactic to try here would be visiting universities of interest, starting now and repeating over the next couple of years, to soak up both campus atmosphere and academic-adminstrative tone.
+ 1 re: Cliff's suggestion to attend a school with a junior year abroad, or comparable exchange program, especially since your daughter is interested in languages. Enormous learning opportunity.
Re: small liberal arts vs. large state schools, be alert to small programs nested within large schools, e.g., University of Michigan's Residential College, which may offer the benefits of both approaches. What a state school can offer, apart from cost advantages, is a large and diverse local universe of individuals and program resources for the independent-minded to explore.
Re: prestige, imho, the two-edged sword cliché applies. Will your daughter be happy/achieve her potential as a life-long member of an elite 'club,' or would she ultimately find such membership a limiting impediment?
Re: program focus, harkening back to Mark's emphasis on self-knowledge (learning style), if your daughter has any kind of an independent or creative streak, there's a strong case for an liberal arts undergrad approach. I've recently read luminaries Peter Drucker (business) and E.O. Wilson (Biology) beat the old horse about the value of laying down a broad, diverse educational foundation, prior to specializing. Over the long-run, the ability to innovate within a specialty is supported by familiarity with thinking in many different disciplines.
On the other hand, there are also some reputable joint BA-MA programs. Hopkins, for example, has a five-year curriculum, with its School of Advanced International Studies, leading to a joint degree, as well as a joint MA-MBA program, in collaboration with Wharton. Hopkins also has overseas undergrad study opportunities, fwiw, in China and Italy. University of Virginia has a five-year program leading to a joint BA-MPP, with emphasis on leadership.
Best of luck.
Sharon Bowman
Sharon Bowman
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Re: prestige, imho, the two-edged sword cliché applies. Will your daughter be happy/achieve her potential as a life-long member of an elite 'club,' or would she ultimatley find such membership a limiting impediment?
I do not mean to snark on you here, but are you serious?
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
Since you disagree, argue your point, and I'll do my best to respond.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
I think it's because being a member of an elite club could be limiting or an impediment, but only being a member on a non-elite club could be a limiting impediment.
Tom Glasgow
Thomas W Glasgow
Of course he is, you remember the trouble Kerry had as a French speaker don't you?originally posted by Sharon Bowman:
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Re: prestige, imho, the two-edged sword cliché applies. Will your daughter be happy/achieve her potential as a life-long member of an elite 'club,' or would she ultimatley find such membership a limiting impediment?
I do not mean to snark on you here, but are you serious?
Then again maybe the present US political environment is the best argument for a career overseas.
On a more serious note not acheiving membership in an elite club that you sought would be more disheartening.