NWR: Searching for a College

[Jonathan Loesberg]

1) Internships are of course unpaid. As I said, they get academic credit and, on the other end, result in jobs with some frequency.

2)I don't know where the philosophers get interns. I don't imagine doing philosophy, but doing public policy analysis perhaps. Lit. interns get positions writing press releases and working for the slew of in-house journals, as well as in various other local agencies and publishing houses.

3)Prestige of home institution matters a lot less than departments, career centers, profs and students making contacts.

I am, as an academic, a genuine old stick in the mud, believing in reading, talking about issues, writing well, etc. But the academic pronouncements on this board make me a young radical by comparison. I hope Bill is talking to people with fresher minds than we show here about what the world our students will enter will look like.

 

[Steve Lanum]

Call me a nut but I don't think four years of college should be all about finding a job. I really recommend that you and your daughter listen to both of the audio links embedded in the paragraph you'll find here:

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community.cartalk.com

As I read through this thread I remembered that discussion even though it was broadcast over a decade ago. One thing to ask yourselves is how many people who land those supposedly prestigious jobs staffed by the graduates of top schools actually enjoy their lives? I worked for a couple of decades as a lawyer and many of the people I knew--no matter where they went to school or were employed--wanted nothing more than to change careers.

 

[Tom Glasgow]

You might consider University of Miami for a South American connection. Maybe Oswaldo will weigh in after he completes his UC Davis application.

 

[Peter Creasey]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg: I hope Bill is talking to people with fresher minds than we show here about what the world our students will enter will look like.

Jonathan, This sounds sounds almost cynical...which train of thought it is easy to be aligned with!!

. . . . . Pete

 

[Dan McQ]

originally posted by Tom Glasgow:
Earlier I was going to bring up that if she has presidential ambitions it's Harvard or Yale.

42 says hello.

originally posted by Cole Kendall:
I'm a bit late to the party but in another life I taught IB at a variety of mostly fairly large state schools and now sort of do IB and can toss in a few points:

Don't major in undergraduate business. I highly recommend studying something else as an undergrad and then if you really want to do business get an MBA. Undergrad business programs tend to be full of students whose parents threatened not to pay for college if they didn't do something useful and many of them have little interest in the subjects. Far better to learn a language, some history and perhaps some science or social science and then do business later.

Do take advantage of study abroad programs. I went to Italy for a semester and much of my current business in Italy is greatly aided by the time I spent in Rome as a junior.

Also late to this party. I'm biased, because both my wife (SFS) and I (CAS) are Georgetown grads and our middle daughter is currently a junior in the SFS there. Many good points raised already, including taking advantage of the college counselor to organize a search. Many of our classmates who attended Georgetown's SFS got MBAs later before entering international business. Our eldest went to a smaller liberal arts college (Saint Michael's in Vermont) - the education was superb and the alumni network is surprisingly large. Although not doing the business aspect of things while an undergrad is good advice, it will surely help to be at an institution that has a strong program if only to provide exposure to the opportunities in the field and to begin to develop network connections. In the end, she'll be best served by going to the place she feels most comfortable. As for cost, Georgetown (and most Ivies) provide need-based assistance so I wouldn't exclude places simply on the basis of cost.

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by Jeff Grossman:

originally posted by MLipton:
(filing yet another patent application and writing another grant application)

How many did you do in 2011 ?

Just one last year, but so far two in this year with maybe more to come.

Mark Lipton

 

[SFJoe]

Some of you had much better college counselors than I did.

Mine was an obvious idiot.

 

[Oswaldo Costa]

originally posted by Tom Glasgow:
You might consider University of Miami for a South American connection. Maybe Oswaldo will weigh in after he completes his UC Davis application.

Excellent idea, UC Davis followed by making wine in the Andes.

But didn't Steve Jobs deliver a peerless speech, someday somewhere, telling students what to do?

 

[Tom Glasgow]

originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:

originally posted by Tom Glasgow:
You might consider University of Miami for a South American connection. Maybe Oswaldo will weigh in after he completes his UC Davis application.

Excellent idea, UC Davis followed by making wine in the Andes.

But didn't Steve Jobs deliver a peerless speech, someday somewhere, telling students what to do?

Sure he tells the students they should've quit before graduation. Advice which suffers from survivorship bias, but it makes for a nice story.

 

[Steve Guattery]

originally posted by Bill Lundstrom:

schools i thought would be accessible for average to above average students, university of richmond, northeastern, for example are not easy to get into, and then it cost like $50k a year.

I know Richmond has become really competitive in the last few years. It's amazing how competitive many schools have become.

edited to add: the campus visits and information sessions we have been to have been very well conducted i thought.

The admissions people at many places are very good. They've honed their statistical methods to the point that they can admit a class and get the yield they want within a small margin.

One other bit of advice is that if you visit a school, make sure that you register your name at the admissions office. They include information about visits in their measure of interest in the school, which is a factor in deciding admissions.

 

[Cliff]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

3)Prestige of home institution matters a lot less than departments, career centers, profs and students making contacts.

This is true and is worth keeping in mind after having landed someplace. While picking a school, though, strength across the board should be a concern. It's always nice to have options. The one key that I would repeat is that undergrads should go in with their eyes open, and a willingness to try something new and change their minds.

 

[Bruce K]

I'm not an academic, but I have one daughter in college and another who starts next fall, so we've done a lot of looking over the past few years. One school your daughter might want to check out is Macalester College in St. Paul. It has a very heavy international orientation with lots of foreign students (Kofi Annan is an alum) and good semester/year abroad programs, though it's much more focused on the liberal arts than the business side. We visited it last fall and I was really impressed with the atmosphere -- seemed like an exciting, vibrant place. Like all private liberal arts colleges, it's expensive, but seems to pretty good about dispensing aid.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by Peter Creasey:

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg: I hope Bill is talking to people with fresher minds than we show here about what the world our students will enter will look like.

Jonathan, This sounds sounds almost cynical...which train of thought it is easy to be aligned with!!

. . . . . Pete

I don't hear any cynicism on rereading, and I intended none. I was saying that much of the advice given on this thread is old hat, but that doesn't reflect on my belief in the value of an undergraduate education, taking the word value in all senses.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by SFJoe:
Some of you had much better college counselors than I did.

Mine was an obvious idiot.

My guidance counselor in high school was useless, though I was fond of him. I stayed away from advisors in college except for my faculty advisor, who became my mentor.

But people who get fuds are not a good sample. Counselors are useful about the world that is not made up of fuds.

 

[Cole Kendall]

originally posted by Jonathan Loesberg:

originally posted by SFJoe:
Some of you had much better college counselors than I did.

Mine was an obvious idiot.

My guidance counselor in high school was useless, though I was fond of him. I stayed away from advisors in college except for my faculty advisor, who became my mentor.

But people who get fuds are not a good sample. Counselors are useful about the world that is not made up of fuds.

The rumor at my HS was that the counselor got kickbacks from Kalamzoo an institution that she promoted to every student.

I would note that the list prices of many schools is about as reliable as the list price for (back in the day) stereo equipment. Virtually everyone but the Saudi emirs get a discount via student aid; the relevant question is how much loans versus how much grant. It is worth looking into the numbers to see how much students in your financial position (assuming you are not a Saudi emir) really pay.

 

[VLM]

I'd like to be clear that I don't think the purpose of en education is to get a job. It is a good in and of itself. I'm an academic for fuck's sake. Not sclerotic tenured faculty like Prof. Loesberg (my salary is mainly covered by grants), but I have pursued a "life of the mind" and have found it rewarding in many ways.

What I want to get across is that a college education DOES NOT guarantee someone a lucrative and fulfilling career. I think it is really important for everyone to understand that. Given how expensive a university education is these days it cannot be just a voyage of self discovery and enlightenment for middle class people. A four-year education at a private institution (or out of state at a top state institution) can result in payments of ~$1000 a month until the student is 50 years old.

I could list 100 things wrong with higher education in America, but cost is the biggest one (thinking of a university as a business and students as customers are a close 2 and 3). Essentially, it is now almost impossible for anyone from the middle class to take a risk at university. I don't know what the ramifications of this are, but they have to be depressing.

This is a bit off topic, but it is something I think about.

Bill, a last piece of advice. IMO, saddling yourself with lots of debt for a middling private school is probably the worst possible decision you could make (I don't have kids, so this is all theoretical for me and I realize that these are very difficult decisions). If your daughter is the type that likes a smaller feel, there are (as others have pointed out), programs within large institutions that make them feel small. "Honors colleges" and things of that sort.

 

[Jonathan Loesberg]

originally posted by VLM:
I'd like to be clear that I don't think the purpose of en education is to get a job. It is a good in and of itself. I'm an academic for fuck's sake. Not sclerotic tenured faculty like Prof. Loesberg (my salary is mainly covered by grants), but I have pursued a "life of the mind" and have found it rewarding in many ways.

I may be sclerotic, but not because I'm tenured. Most tenured scientists have salaries produced largely by grants. This is better for universities, but it is hardly a socially different form of support. And I do suppose that you would take tenure were it offered to you.

 

[SFJoe]

It's probably a topic for a different day and thread, but I've been wondering why colleges have been able to increase prices so continuously over the last several decades. Also wondering why schools feel such an unaccountable urge toward expansion. Within NYC, Columbia and NYU both argue that whole neighborhoods would be better off as part of their university rather than in their current use. It seems nonsensical to me, and both these factors seem like they are driven by economic forces that I don't understand.

There is doubtless already a literature on the subject, but I'm too lazy to read it.

Anyhow, sorry to interrupt the college advice.

 

[Zachary Ross]

The main problem is a bottleneck phenomenon - there just aren't enough good universities for all the qualified students. Supply and demand. Free availability of student loans has also helped pump up the prices, but it's a secondary cause.

Enrollment over time:

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nces.ed.gov

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by VLM:
I'd like to be clear that I don't think the purpose of en education is to get a job. It is a good in and of itself. I'm an academic for fuck's sake. Not sclerotic tenured faculty like Prof. Loesberg (my salary is mainly covered by grants), but I have pursued a "life of the mind" and have found it rewarding in many ways.

What I want to get across is that a college education DOES NOT guarantee someone a lucrative and fulfilling career. I think it is really important for everyone to understand that. Given how expensive a university education is these days it cannot be just a voyage of self discovery and enlightenment for middle class people. A four-year education at a private institution (or out of state at a top state institution) can result in payments of ~$1000 a month until the student is 50 years old.

I could list 100 things wrong with higher education in America, but cost is the biggest one (thinking of a university as a business and students as customers are a close 2 and 3). Essentially, it is now almost impossible for anyone from the middle class to take a risk at university. I don't know what the ramifications of this are, but they have to be depressing.

This is a bit off topic, but it is something I think about.

Bill, a last piece of advice. IMO, saddling yourself with lots of debt for a middling private school is probably the worst possible decision you could make (I don't have kids, so this is all theoretical for me and I realize that these are very difficult decisions). If your daughter is the type that likes a smaller feel, there are (as others have pointed out), programs within large institutions that make them feel small. "Honors colleges" and things of that sort.

Hear, here! Sclerotic and tenured though I am, I still recall choosing my college largely for what it would do to provide me with the education I'd need for my chosen profession, the same that I'm pursuing today. Not everyone is so certain of their future as I was, and for them I think that a diversity of choices is preferable. The cost of education is a nasty burden today (when I started at a small, private school in 1977, tuition plus room and board ran me $4500 per year -- it now costs $40,000 per year; safe to say that I wouldn't have been able to make the same choices today that I made back then) and must be factored into any decision.

Mark Lipton
HMC class of '81