the (mis)education of scott reiner

originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by JSchwartze:

...Sandhi, Palmina, Flying Goat, Ampelos, Evening Land, Tyler, Arcadian, Kathy Joseph, Alma Rosa, Cold Heaven, Zotovich, Dragonette, Clos Pepe, Ojai(purchased grapes), Piedrasassi, Hilliard-Bruce, Longoria, Samsara - even Melville and Diatom, hell, Brewer-Clifton are models of relative restraint in the Napa context. Might want to check out those fractions, especially compared to Napa and the sheer number of producers there cranking out Big Juice. People like Loring and Sea Smoke are the exception down there.
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OK, I've only had the wines of a handful of the producers you've named. Ojai might be a model of restraint now, but even Adam Tolmach concedes that his earlier efforts were not. I'm a long-term fan of Richard Sanford, but on my visit to Alma Rosa a year ago I found a mixed bag, with some wines restrained and others showing alcoholic and hot (granted, most were from '07). Are you sure that you're not being misled by the apples and oranges comparison of Cabernet Sauvignon in Napa with Pinot Noir and Syrah in the SRH? I've had plenty of goopy, overextracted, overoaked, overly alcoholic Syrahs from there, I can assure you. And Brewer-Clifton: are you joking?

Mark Lipton
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Ojai's monster wines weren't made from Sta. Rita Hills fruit.
 
originally posted by JSchwartze:

Which ones? The weather there doesn't really allow for that style. This is a Region I growing area, whch is as cold as it gets in California. Are you thinking of places further inland? Santa Maria Valley? Santa Ynez? Edna Valley? San Luis Obispo? There's not much syrah planted in the Sta. Rita Hills in the first place and the people who make it are definitely not going for the Paso Robles model - they can't.
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Now that I think on it, you're right that many of them came from the Santa Ynez Valley since there's often quite a bit of overlap in wineries. However, from the SRH I can name Babcock, Dierberg, Longoria and Melville as having produced Syrahs that were decidedly not to my taste. Then again, only a few CA Syrahs are to my taste, so that may be a rather narrow window to gauge them through.

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by JSchwartze:

Which ones? The weather there doesn't really allow for that style. This is a Region I growing area, whch is as cold as it gets in California. Are you thinking of places further inland? Santa Maria Valley? Santa Ynez? Edna Valley? San Luis Obispo? There's not much syrah planted in the Sta. Rita Hills in the first place and the people who make it are definitely not going for the Paso Robles model - they can't.
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Now that I think on it, you're right that many of them came from the Santa Ynez Valley since there's often quite a bit of overlap in wineries. However, from the SRH I can name Babcock, Dierberg, Longoria and Melville as having produced Syrahs that were decidedly not to my taste. Then again, only a few CA Syrahs are to my taste, so that may be a rather narrow window to gauge them through.

Mark Lipton
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Babcock, Dierberg and Longoria all get their syrah from Santa Ynez. Probably best to steer clear of that region!
 
While I completely agree the Napa Valley is no place to pursue CA wines of 'balance', I have seen almost no posts on Napa wines so far. In fact the one Napa wine, Stony Hill is probably one of the better exceptions. I'm assuming Scott is Napa stranded with no opportunity to head off to say, the Andersen Valley, or the Santa Cruz Mountains.

As far as the central coast (including SRH), i've kind of given up. It's just a personal thing - I don't seem to like the Pinot Noir (and most syrah) from down there. Even the restrained pinot producers Arcadian, Alma Rosa, Clos Pepe. I don't seem to like what grows there. Let just call it a personal problem. Some of the Arcadian and Rhys syrahs from the Santa Lucia highlands have been okay. Good even. But even Copain has dropped the region apart from Brousseau which is in Chalone.
 
originally posted by Jim Diven:
While I completely agree the Napa Valley is no place to pursue CA wines of 'balance', I have seen almost no posts on Napa wines so far. In fact the one Napa wine, Stony Hill is probably one of the better exceptions. I'm assuming Scott is Napa stranded with no opportunity to head off to say, the Andersen Valley, or the Santa Cruz Mountains.

As far as the central coast (including SRH), i've kind of given up. It's just a personal thing - I don't seem to like the Pinot Noir (and most syrah) from down there. Even the restrained pinot producers Arcadian, Alma Rosa, Clos Pepe. I don't seem to like what grows there. Let just call it a personal problem. Some of the Arcadian and Rhys syrahs from the Santa Lucia highlands have been okay. Good even. But even Copain has dropped the region apart from Brousseau which is in Chalone.
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Personal taste is never wrong. Hard to say that Copain gave up on the Santa Rita Hills as they only made a single wine from there, a 2007 Clos Pepe Pinot. They used to buy Syrah from the Santa Lucia Highlands but the difference between what's grown there and in the Santa Rita Hills is pretty vast. Copain was also getting Syrah from Paso, and comparing the Santa Rita Hills to Paso is like comparing the Jura to the Languedoc. Funny that guys in Sonoma want to play around with fruit grown almost or over 300 miles away in the first place, however much they might like it. Hell, Arbois is closer to Nimes than Healdsburg is to Paso Robles, much less Lompoc. Maybe a Ganevat Carignane is in the works?
 
originally posted by JSchwartze:
Fer Sure Fer Sure The fanciest wineries down there would look like Quonset huts if you dropped them in Napa...
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For a taste of old time, unpretentious Napa, drop by Ballentine vineyards just north of St. Helena. A small working winery, they just redid their tasting room to move upscale but it still isn't bigger or fancier than the bathrooms at a place like Darioush. The wines are a funny combination of lively, tangy, light-on-their-feet Malvasia and Chenin Blanc, and rather hulking tannic reds from the estate vineyards (we're in the warm section of Napa here). I love that they've kept their old Chenin vines, one of the last plots in Napa, and excellent, vigorous juice it is. Some of the Zins are a bit too flammable, but the Syrah and Petite Sirah can be remarkable, Madiran structure with Napa ripeness in a good way. This is one winery that hasn't hangtimed and mushed their tannins into the vinous equivalent of a smoothie.
 
originally posted by JSchwartze:
the Santa Lucia Highlands but the difference between what's grown there and in the Santa Rita Hills is pretty vast.
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Whoops. I may have had my Saints wrong. I was thinking of OTT PN.
 
[/quote]

Which ones? The weather there doesn't really allow for that style. This is a Region I growing area, whch is as cold as it gets in California.[/quote]

I've drunk more than my share of Santa Rita Hills wines. IMO, the challenge there is not so much the temperature as the wind. Grape vines don't like cool winds. It makes them accumulate sugar without ripeness. You see the same thing in the Petaluma Gap sometimes in Sonoma.

I was once very hopeful about the Santa Rita Hills. I don't hold out much hope anymore.
 
had dinner with nicole abiouness at farmstead in st helena last night. part of long meadow ranch, whose wines ain't bad. restrained, good fresh fruit. food was excellent, and the people couldn't have been nicer. ribs, meatballs, cheddar biscuits, et al... we brought nicole's wines for dinner.

08 pinot noir santa lucia silacci vineyard - good earth/fruit balance, nice balanced acidity. tasty on its own and good at the table. comfortable, not trying to prove anything. i like.

08 pinot noir carneros stanley ranch - more 'cali' fruit, but not in any way over-ripe or spoofy. quite delicious in a way that i imagine would appeal to many geeks and normal people too. really comfortable in its skin.

07 sangiovese mendocino eaglepoint ranch - tasty enough, but not sure it makes any case for sangiovese to be grown in cali...

i like her wines, sanity in a sea of heresy...
 
originally posted by JSchwartze:
originally posted by Jim Diven:
While I completely agree the Napa Valley is no place to pursue CA wines of 'balance', I have seen almost no posts on Napa wines so far. In fact the one Napa wine, Stony Hill is probably one of the better exceptions. I'm assuming Scott is Napa stranded with no opportunity to head off to say, the Andersen Valley, or the Santa Cruz Mountains.

As far as the central coast (including SRH), i've kind of given up. It's just a personal thing - I don't seem to like the Pinot Noir (and most syrah) from down there. Even the restrained pinot producers Arcadian, Alma Rosa, Clos Pepe. I don't seem to like what grows there. Let just call it a personal problem. Some of the Arcadian and Rhys syrahs from the Santa Lucia highlands have been okay. Good even. But even Copain has dropped the region apart from Brousseau which is in Chalone.
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Personal taste is never wrong. Hard to say that Copain gave up on the Santa Rita Hills as they only made a single wine from there, a 2007 Clos Pepe Pinot. They used to buy Syrah from the Santa Lucia Highlands but the difference between what's grown there and in the Santa Rita Hills is pretty vast. Copain was also getting Syrah from Paso, and comparing the Santa Rita Hills to Paso is like comparing the Jura to the Languedoc. Funny that guys in Sonoma want to play around with fruit grown almost or over 300 miles away in the first place, however much they might like it. Hell, Arbois is closer to Nimes than Healdsburg is to Paso Robles, much less Lompoc. Maybe a Ganevat Carignane is in the works?
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Sorry should have been more clear I guess. On Copain giving up I was referring to Syrah from the broader Central Coast region vs simply a single AVA. As i'm sure you know, Copain made Syrah in multiple vintages from Harrison Clarke and Thompson in Santa Barbara, Garys' in SLH, and multiple James Berry wines from Paso. All gone now, with the focus almost exclusively up north in Yorkville Highlands and the Andersen Valley. That 07 Clos Pepe (I have a few bottles) was his only Pinot ever released from outside the Anderson Valley, although I hear a RRV estate pinot is out now. I don't really buy Copain any longer, but in their defense they have moved away from the CA negociant approach you point out, and have purchased vineyards up north. Of course the winery is still in the RRV, but I think that is more a lifestyle and marketing choice.

Totally agree about the regional vs AVA generalizations btw. Very apples and oranges, and as was pointed out above when you add in variety comparisons, well... But the premise of the thread was 'to discover why people drink California wine', which in an area the size of CA is a lot like understanding why people drink French wine. So I am sorry to generalize about the entire central coast, I know there are many good wines there, but I spent several years at it and just didn't find it worth my while any longer. For the record i'm even more unfair about Washington wine (where I live). I tried a slew of wines my first year here (2009) and found a few good ones, but the hit rate was so low I gave up without spending the 7-8 years I did on the Central Coast.
 
originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by JSchwartze:
the Santa Lucia Highlands but the difference between what's grown there and in the Santa Rita Hills is pretty vast.
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Whoops. I may have had my Saints wrong. I was thinking of OTT PN.
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Likely. I've had way more than my share of OTT SLH pinot.
However with one producer - Arcadian - i've preferred the SLH pinots to the SRH. But then, apart from the Fiddlestix wines, he has only dabbled in Santa Rita Hills, and made quite a lot of SLH and Santa Maria pinot.
 
originally posted by scottreiner:

scholium project babylon tenbrink vineyards 05 - syrah. this is truly terrible, objectionable wine. oddly, i did find some balance to it. every aspect of it -- tannin, acid, extraction, alcohol -- is so overdone, they could almost be called in balance. try this only if you're into sadomasochism and want to punish yourself for indulging in too much muscadet.
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fwiw, this is petite sirah, not syrah.
 
originally posted by JSchwartze:
Fer Sure Fer SureIn all ways worse. Starting with the people. Most folks in the Sta. Rita Hills place winemaking ahead of lifestyle, at least for the time being. The fanciest wineries down there would look like Quonset huts if you dropped them in Napa. If you want a steak down in the Buellton and Lompoc neighborhood you go to The Hitching Post II or, better yet, Jocko's. In Napa you go to Press. Case closed. St. Helena would be a nice place to peddle Botox and the winemaking equivalents, though.
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I would like to respectfully invite you to a vertical tasting of Corison Cabernets sometime.

Proud of every wrinkle. I've earned them.
 
originally posted by JSchwartze:
Fer Sure Fer SureIn all ways worse. Starting with the people. Most folks in the Sta. Rita Hills place winemaking ahead of lifestyle, at least for the time being. The fanciest wineries down there would look like Quonset huts if you dropped them in Napa. If you want a steak down in the Buellton and Lompoc neighborhood you go to The Hitching Post II or, better yet, Jocko's. In Napa you go to Press. Case closed. St. Helena would be a nice place to peddle Botox and the winemaking equivalents, though.
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I would like to respectfully invite you to a vertical tasting of Corison Cabernets sometime.

Proud of every wrinkle. I've earned them.
 
originally posted by cathycorison:

I would like to respectfully invite you to a vertical tasting of Corison Cabernets sometime.

Proud of every wrinkle. I've earned them.
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Oh, don't be too respectful, it's just JSchwartze.
 
originally posted by cathycorison:

I would like to respectfully invite you to a vertical tasting of Corison Cabernets sometime.

Proud of every wrinkle. I've earned them.
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If he won't take you up on that offer, I'd be happy to fill in for him! It'd be a case of preaching to the choir, though.

Mark Lipton
 
One problem with Napa is that there aren't *enough* Corisons, not to mention enough wineries that practice the Corison pricing model, which doesn't insult the customers' wallets and common sense. The changes in Napa pretty closely track the increasing of rarity of wineries and wines like Corison, which is what's depressing. It's at turns sad, admirable and amazing that she still plugs away, surrounded by ever greater numbers of monster truck wines, wineries and their drivers. Prices have followed, for everything from restaurants to hotels to, natch, wine. The average home listing price in Rutherford this week is $3,316,667. In St. Helena, $2,682,263. Wonder what the average high-end Cabernet or "Meritage" price is from those locales this week?
 
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