two for three

[Cliff]

2007 Dr. F. Weins-Prm Wehlener Sonnenuhr Riesling Kabinett - Germany, Mosel Saar Ruwer (11/21/2008)
A stunning showing for a Kabinett that is built like a Kabinett: a wine of inference, of suggestion, self-assured with no need to shout. The antithesis of points. It's showing a bit lush at the moment, but the slate and minerals are there to see. The bottle was not big enough.

2002 Catherine et Pierre Breton Bourgueil Clos Snchal - France, Loire Valley, Touraine, Bourgueil (11/21/2008)
Just beautiful, in a great place. I took this to La Sirne, and it was singing from the get-go (no decanting). It has broadened out and shows layers, depth, tobacco, hints of graphite, everything you could want, and I think it clocks in under 12%. There may have been a little earth in there, but no brett. I'm a little surprised at just how open it showed, but there is no shortage of life left.

2005 Domaine Laffont Madiran Erigone - France, Southwest France, Madiran (11/21/2008)
This was the odd wine out, as it were. I did it no favors by serving it after the 2002 Breton. It came across as big and a bit slick, even though I don't think it sees new wood. Worth revisiting in different circumstances.

 

[SFJoe]

originally posted by Cliff:

2002 Catherine et Pierre Breton Bourgueil Clos Snchal - France, Loire Valley, Touraine, Bourgueil (11/21/2008)
Just beautiful, in a great place...it has broadened out and shows layers, depth, tobacco, hints of graphite, everything you could want, and I think it clocks in under 12%. There may have been a little earth in there, but no brett. I'm a little surprised at just how open it showed, but there is no shortage of life left.

Could not agree more. It is shockingly open and delicious.

 

[Zachary Ross]

originally posted by Cliff:
2005 Domaine Laffont Madiran Erigone - France, Southwest France, Madiran (11/21/2008)
This was the odd wine out, as it were. I did it no favors by serving it after the 2002 Breton. It came across as big and a bit slick, even though I don't think it sees new wood. Worth revisiting in different circumstances.

From Charles Neal's website:

Erigone goes into second and third use barrels which round it out while giving it some creamy oak and spice notes. Malolactic fermentation takes place in barrel, yielding excellent integration of oak and wine. The lvage takes place in oak for sixteen months, and the wine is bottled without fining or filtration.

 

[MLipton]

originally posted by SFJoe:

originally posted by Cliff:

2002 Catherine et Pierre Breton Bourgueil Clos Snchal - France, Loire Valley, Touraine, Bourgueil (11/21/2008)
Just beautiful, in a great place...it has broadened out and shows layers, depth, tobacco, hints of graphite, everything you could want, and I think it clocks in under 12%. There may have been a little earth in there, but no brett. I'm a little surprised at just how open it showed, but there is no shortage of life left.

Could not agree more. It is shockingly open and delicious.

Wow! Kewl. I'll have to break open a bottle soon.

Mark Lipton

 

[MarkS]

originally posted by Zachary Ross:

originally posted by Cliff:
2005 Domaine Laffont Madiran Erigone - France, Southwest France, Madiran (11/21/2008)
This was the odd wine out, as it were. I did it no favors by serving it after the 2002 Breton. It came across as big and a bit slick, even though I don't think it sees new wood. Worth revisiting in different circumstances.

From Charles Neal's website:

Erigone goes into second and third use barrels which round it out while giving it some creamy oak and spice notes. Malolactic fermentation takes place in barrel, yielding excellent integration of oak and wine. The lvage takes place in oak for sixteen months, and the wine is bottled without fining or filtration.

So how many Laffont Madiran's are there these days?

 

[VLM]

originally posted by Cliff:
2002 Catherine et Pierre Breton Bourgueil Clos Snchal - France, Loire Valley, Touraine, Bourgueil (11/21/2008)
Just beautiful, in a great place. I took this to La Sirne, and it was singing from the get-go (no decanting). It has broadened out and shows layers, depth, tobacco, hints of graphite, everything you could want, and I think it clocks in under 12%. There may have been a little earth in there, but no brett. I'm a little surprised at just how open it showed, but there is no shortage of life left.

That has been my experience lately as well. Although it didn't hold up that well re-corked in the fridge. To me, that doesn't bode well for long life. I'll be drinking most of mine over the next 3 years or so, with a bottle saved as a science experiment.

 

[Zachary Ross]

originally posted by MarkS:
So how many Laffont Madiran's are there these days?

I believe just two: Erigone, and Hecate, which is 100% Tannat, 100% new oak. There is also a sweet Pacherenc du Vic Bilh made from 100% Petit Manseng.

Loading…

www.charlesnealselections.com

 

[Cliff]

originally posted by Zachary Ross:

originally posted by Cliff:
2005 Domaine Laffont Madiran Erigone - France, Southwest France, Madiran (11/21/2008)
This was the odd wine out, as it were. I did it no favors by serving it after the 2002 Breton. It came across as big and a bit slick, even though I don't think it sees new wood. Worth revisiting in different circumstances.

From Charles Neal's website:

Erigone goes into second and third use barrels which round it out while giving it some creamy oak and spice notes. Malolactic fermentation takes place in barrel, yielding excellent integration of oak and wine. The lvage takes place in oak for sixteen months, and the wine is bottled without fining or filtration.

That was my recollection. It's not barriqued but does see some wood and it shows. The bottle is impressively heavy and the fruit jet black. From previous experience, it has rounded edges but not the over-the-top, gold rolex feel. But next to the Breton it felt like it.

 

[Cliff]

originally posted by VLM:

originally posted by Cliff:
2002 Catherine et Pierre Breton Bourgueil Clos Snchal - France, Loire Valley, Touraine, Bourgueil (11/21/2008)
Just beautiful, in a great place. I took this to La Sirne, and it was singing from the get-go (no decanting). It has broadened out and shows layers, depth, tobacco, hints of graphite, everything you could want, and I think it clocks in under 12%. There may have been a little earth in there, but no brett. I'm a little surprised at just how open it showed, but there is no shortage of life left.

That has been my experience lately as well. Although it didn't hold up that well re-corked in the fridge. To me, that doesn't bode well for long life. I'll be drinking most of mine over the next 3 years or so, with a bottle saved as a science experiment.

That's good to know. It does seem odd to me that it's moving so quickly, especially given its profile.

 

[David M. Bueker]

That's good to know. It does seem odd to me that it's moving so quickly, especially given its profile.

I guess I would have to ask why you expect a Loire Cab Franc to age for a very long time.

I love older wines, but sometimes I think we delude ourselves.

 

[Jay Miller]

originally posted by David M. Bueker:

I guess I would have to ask why you expect a Loire Cab Franc to age for a very long time.

Experience with other aged Loire cabernet franc based wines combined with the quality of the producer.

 

[SFJoe]

originally posted by David M. Bueker:

That's good to know. It does seem odd to me that it's moving so quickly, especially given its profile.

I guess I would have to ask why you expect a Loire Cab Franc to age for a very long time.

I love older wines, but sometimes I think we delude ourselves.

Several experiences with the '47 from the same vineyard, for instance.

 

[SFJoe]

Not to mention word of mouth about much older wines from the same vineyard. I think when Catherine and Pierre were buttering up Schildknecht they served him something older than 1910, but I forget the vintage.

Anyhow, David was very enthusiastic. Subscribers to his new publication may be able to fill us in.

 

[Cliff]

originally posted by Jay Miller:

originally posted by David M. Bueker:

I guess I would have to ask why you expect a Loire Cab Franc to age for a very long time.

Experience with other aged Loire cabernet franc based wines combined with the quality of the producer.

Exactly, and the way the 2002 Senechal has shown up to now.

 

[Marc D]

originally posted by VLM:

That has been my experience lately as well. Although it didn't hold up that well re-corked in the fridge. To me, that doesn't bode well for long life. I'll be drinking most of mine over the next 3 years or so, with a bottle saved as a science experiment.

I haven't had very many Cab Franc wines that were better the next day.
Lots of whites like young Riesling, Muscadet get better. Reds, much more unusual. Some Cru Beaujolais, some Nebbiolo. Very few Cab Franc. Maybe I finish the bottle and don't have enough of a sample size.

Cliff, thanks for the note on the Clos Senechal.

 

[David M. Bueker]

Ah yes, the old story about perfect bottles from the producer's cellar. Somehow it's always impossible to sustain that type of result with wines not even half as old that had to make a long journey.

 

[SFJoe]

originally posted by David M. Bueker:
Ah yes, the old story about perfect bottles from the producer's cellar. Somehow it's always impossible to sustain that type of result with wines not even half as old that had to make a long journey.

Well, if you define the problem with enough care you can ensure the answer (note to you-know-who, this is actually "question begging").

I've never even seen Loire cabernet franc in the US older than the '80s, though I've had great '89s from Breton and Raffault recently.

I've had great CF from the '70s in Paris, not from producers' cellars. But I'm sure you can dismiss those as well.

 

[Cliff]

My experience doesn't go back nearly that far. But I've had a bunch of wines from the 1990s, and this particular wine was dense and tight as a drum not so very long ago.

 

[David M. Bueker]

originally posted by SFJoe:

I've had great CF from the '70s in Paris, not from producers' cellars. But I'm sure you can dismiss those as well.

Of course! Nothing is more fun on a cold Saturday morning.

I should add that for some reason the whole aging of everything until it reaches its mystical peak phenomenon has lost a lot of its appeal for me. There are some wines (top Burgs, Bords, Germans, plus some other isolated things) where it seems worth it, but more and more the supposed additional pleasure from a well aged [insert non-traditional wine here] eludes me. Cellar roulette no longer fascinates me.

 

[SFJoe]

originally posted by David M. Bueker:

originally posted by SFJoe: I've had great CF from the '70s in Paris, not from producers' cellars. But I'm sure you can dismiss those as well.

Of course! Nothing is more fun on a cold Saturday morning. I should add that for some reason the whole aging of everything until it reaches its mystical peak phenomenon has lost a lot of its appeal for me. There are some wines (top Burgs, Bords, Germans, plus some other isolated things) where it seems worth it, but more and more the supposed additional pleasure from a well aged [insert non-traditional wine here] eludes me. Cellar roulette no longer fascinates me.

I can buy some of this. The mystical peak is way overdone--good wines often show real pleasure at many stages of their lives. But I rather doubt that Nadi Foucault thinks of his wine as "non-traditional," what with the vineyards having been in the family for a few centuries: