David M. Bueker
David M. Bueker
Pardon my incomplete explanaiton - I meant non-traditional in terms of being considered worthy of long cellaring. Loire reds have never been on the radar screen as wines to lay down for one's children.
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two for three
- Thread starter Cliff
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Pardon my incomplete explanaiton - I meant non-traditional in terms of being considered worthy of long cellaring. Loire reds have never been on the radar screen as wines to lay down for one's children.
originally posted by David M. Bueker:
I meant non-traditional in terms of being considered worthy of long cellaring. Loire reds have never been on the radar screen as wines to lay down for one's children.
Point well taken, but to be slightly contrarian it is also important to ask whose tradition and whose radar screen? Just because something is not common in the United States or even in Paris does not mean it is not a legitimate tradition. Especially when we're talking about a product that is not from the US or Paris.
David M. Bueker
David M. Bueker
originally posted by Rahsaan:
Point well taken, but to be slightly contrarian it is also important to ask whose tradition and whose radar screen? Just because something is not common in the United States or even in Paris does not mean it is not a legitimate tradition. Especially when we're talking about a product that is not from the US or Paris.
True, but where might one find the information on those traditions (without having to fly to the Loire)?
Chris Coad
Chris Coad
I've never even seen Loire cabernet franc in the US older than the '80s, though I've had great '89s from Breton and Raffault recently
Missed out on the very pretty Raffault '78 Picasses at Garnet a few years back? I'll have to put one in the Jeebus queue. Not a wine for long-term aging like the '76, but drinking very nicely now.
Chris Coad
Chris Coad
originally posted by David M. Bueker:
originally posted by Rahsaan:
Point well taken, but to be slightly contrarian it is also important to ask whose tradition and whose radar screen? Just because something is not common in the United States or even in Paris does not mean it is not a legitimate tradition. Especially when we're talking about a product that is not from the US or Paris.
True, but where might one find the information on those traditions (without having to fly to the Loire)?
One might suggest posting something to that effect on Wine Disorder. Lots of very knowledgeable Loireheads there.
originally posted by David M. Bueker:
True, but where might one find the information on those traditions (without having to fly to the Loire)?
Surely you jest.
That's why we participate on these boards and form these communities.
And to be clear, I'm not suggesting the mass public start cellaring every Chinon they can find. Just noting that there are numerous 'traditions' and people with a special interest in wine should not be so quick to dismiss those specialized traditions.
That said, I agree that there is no 'magical perfect peak' and find nothing wrong with people enjoying wines at all stages.
That said, I agree that there is no 'magical perfect peak' and find nothing wrong with people enjoying wines at all stages.
David M. Bueker
David M. Bueker
originally posted by Rahsaan:
Surely you jest.
That's why we participate on these boards and form these communities.
In part of course I jest (don't I always).
But the internet is fairly well dominated by sites that espouse a particular set of views. Balance is not inherent to the medium.
Wine Disorder: Of course Chinon can age. Only fools think otherwise.
eBob: Only fools drink Chinon.
WLDG: Hey gang, anybody drinking Chinon tonight? I was going to buy one, but it was $473 CDN.
BWE: Chinon? What's Chinon? did they buy Lafite or something?
Saina Nieminen
Saina Nieminen
DavidB, and the UK wine forum?
When did Rahsaan get all polite on us?originally posted by David M. Bueker:
originally posted by SFJoe:
But I rather doubt that Nadi Foucault thinks of his wine as "non-traditional," what with the vineyards having been in the family for a few centuries:
Pardon my incomplete explanaiton - I meant non-traditional in terms of being considered worthy of long cellaring. Loire reds have never been on the radar screen as wines to lay down for one's children.
Anyhow, that radar screen was tuned for you by the British wine trade, and for reasons having to do with taxes and wars they were never much into Loire reds. Time to adjust your set.
Pierre Breton's grandfather set aside 3 barrels of the '47 for his grandson, IIRC. They knew it was great wine for the ages because it reminded them of the '08, or the '00 in its youth.
As for Bordeaux, sure the old stuff is great, but I would much rather take a chance on 2002 Clos Senechal for my cellar than I would on '00 Pichon Baron.
David M. Bueker
David M. Bueker
originally posted by SFJoe:
As for Bordeaux, sure the old stuff is great, but I would much rather take a chance on 2002 Clos Senechal for my cellar than I would on '00 Pichon Baron.
Now there we part company. And I have not even tried the 2002 Clos Senechal. But I have had the '00 Baron multiple times & I would bet on it every time (and have).
My seconds will speak to yours.originally posted by David M. Bueker:
originally posted by SFJoe:
As for Bordeaux, sure the old stuff is great, but I would much rather take a chance on 2002 Clos Senechal for my cellar than I would on '00 Pichon Baron.
Now there we part company. And I have not even tried the 2002 Clos Senechal. But I have had the '00 Baron multiple times & I would bet on it every time (and have).
David M. Bueker
David M. Bueker
originally posted by SFJoe:
My seconds will speak to yours.
I've always wanted a duel. But don't we have to wait until about 2028 to have it?
Seriously though, I would love to have a Chinon epiphany (since I cannot afford the Baron anymore), but it will have to wait until I clear cellar space & the economy turns around.
Jay Miller
Jay Miller
originally posted by Chris Coad:
I've never even seen Loire cabernet franc in the US older than the '80s, though I've had great '89s from Breton and Raffault recently
Missed out on the very pretty Raffault '78 Picasses at Garnet a few years back? I'll have to put one in the Jeebus queue. Not a wine for long-term aging like the '76, but drinking very nicely now.
He also seems to have forgotten about the older Domaine des Chesnaies Bourgueil. You may not have had a chance you try it but you can read some notes here:
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You're right! I had forgotten that. Of course, the wonder is that I remember anything. Some of us stayed up past our bedtimes that night. And one of us had a job interview the next day. I wonder how potent the alcohol was on my breath?originally posted by Jay Miller:
He also seems to have forgotten about the older Domaine des Chesnaies Bourgueil. You may not have had a chance you try it but you can read some notes here:
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www.compleatwinegeek.com
Chris Coad
Chris Coad
originally posted by Jay Miller:
originally posted by Chris Coad:
I've never even seen Loire cabernet franc in the US older than the '80s, though I've had great '89s from Breton and Raffault recently
Missed out on the very pretty Raffault '78 Picasses at Garnet a few years back? I'll have to put one in the Jeebus queue. Not a wine for long-term aging like the '76, but drinking very nicely now.
He also seems to have forgotten about the older Domaine des Chesnaies Bourgueil. You may not have had a chance you try it but you can read some notes here:
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www.compleatwinegeek.com
I wish I could find more of those wonderful Bourgeuils on this side of the Atlantic--those two were purchased in Tours.
If only I had Kane's connections in the International Wine Mule network...
Jonathan Loesberg
Jonathan Loesberg
I will be drinking a 93 Druet Bourgeuil (the last of my bottles of these) tonight. I would report back, but it would be old news to say that the wine is showing well. I have 96s from Raffault and Druet that just seem to be opening up, again old news on this board. I'm genuinely surprised at the notion that Loire Cab Franc can't age, at least some. And I'm a newbe about these wines.
Jay Miller
Jay Miller
originally posted by SFJoe:
You're right! I had forgotten that.originally posted by Jay Miller:
He also seems to have forgotten about the older Domaine des Chesnaies Bourgueil. You may not have had a chance you try it but you can read some notes here:
Loading…
www.compleatwinegeek.com
Brian really liked the 1969.
originally posted by Cliff:
2002 Catherine et Pierre Breton Bourgueil Clos Snchal - France, Loire Valley, Touraine, Bourgueil (11/21/2008)
Just beautiful, in a great place. I took this to La Sirne, and it was singing from the get-go (no decanting). It has broadened out and shows layers, depth, tobacco, hints of graphite, everything you could want, and I think it clocks in under 12%. There may have been a little earth in there, but no brett. I'm a little surprised at just how open it showed, but there is no shortage of life left.
I'll pile on and sing the praises of this wine, but will note that just about every bottle (maybe eight/all sourced out of Detroit) I've had has reeked like a warm climate outhouse for about an hour before that effect simply disappears. Otherwise it falls into the generally acknowledged descriptor set -- lovely, at that.
I've come to expect the initial fragrances, and am prepared to wait it out...speaking of which, I'm also one of those people who sees longer term goodness in this bottling.
Be well,
Larry