Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
Sinulya, can you go back to Ponsot and get his take on sugar? Diogenes say he da man.
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U
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No need. Harvest started two weeks after most people were done, as usual.
Oswaldo Costa
Oswaldo Costa
Brinksmanship and/or surmaturité?
U
Unknown
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originally posted by Oswaldo Costa:
Brinksmanship and/or surmaturité?
BD schedule
U
Unknown
Guest
originally posted by .sasha:
on the run in the Cote d'OrI knew I was headed to the wrong region when SFJoe discovered me struggling in the cellar with my luggage, trying to fit all the gift bottles and my fancy dress shoes into the same bag, unsuccessfully. "In the Loire", he said, "you only need one pair of shoes".
Regardless, I am here, and even though it looks like I have once again missed Claude by just a few days, I am attempting to follow the trail of that other scientist, John Gilman.
As always, I shall do my best to represent the interests of disorderlies, particularly Oswaldo and fatboy.
So I am, like, about to do the same thing in Deutschland. Does that mean I need to start a new thread?
U
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originally posted by MLipton:
No, just switch languages. German is so much better suited for purple prose anyway.
Mark Lipton
Les Ursules Blanc de Noirs 2008 von Cedric Bouchard war heute Abend fantastisch.
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
Hervorragend, doch immerhin kein deutscher Wein.
U
Unknown
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originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
Hervorragend, doch immerhin kein deutscher Wein.
Zilliken 1985er Rausch Versteigerungseiswein war erstaunlich einfach zu trinken für einen so süßen Wein.
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
Was bedeutet eigentlich 'Versteigerungseiswein?' Sollte das eine Art Uebereiswein sein?
Hoert sich lecker an, auf jeden Fall. Mach' halt weiter.
Hoert sich lecker an, auf jeden Fall. Mach' halt weiter.
Ian Fitzsimmons
Ian Fitzsimmons
D'oh!
U
Unknown
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One fascinating thing about the nomenclature of the wines in the Remstal is that they take on one of two diametrically opposed forms. The consumer with a limited attention span for long Germanic words is only asked to remember a single letter, be it G (presumably from "Gutswein"), S (signifying Selection) or R (for Reserve); otherwise, the whole village/vineyard designation, while technically available, gives way to a characteristic description of the soil. I am not talking about lighthearted references to our favourite rocks, in the style of our beloved Vouvray producers (e.g. Argile vs Silex), but rather some hardcore local names for geological formations that define the respective parts of the hill. This becomes quite an adjustment when you realize you could be looking at wines from two different valleys that bear the same "terroir" name, and that you may have to do some digging to figure out where exactly the grapes come from. Such was the initial obstacle I had to overcome once His Corpulence and I were greeted by Jochen Beurer of Kernen, a most jovial fellow who possesses that wonderful quality of being able to provide just the level of information you request while also knowing when to let the wines do all the talking. Here we would expect to see Stettener Häder and Stettener Pulvermächer (Stetten being a hamlet just south of Kernen) as traditional names, but instead we get Gipskeupe, Schilfsandstein, Kieselsandstein and Stubensandstein (there'll be a quiz later). Conveniently, Jochen has glass cases full of rocks from these places, allowing for first hand inspection. Gipskeuper is small, breakable, chalky grey-pinkish limestone. Schilfsandstein stones are larger, yellow-brownish. Kieselsandstein limestone is almost rusty red, still breakable and chalky, with a waxy feel to the touch. Stubensandstein rocks are dark, huge and hard. Incidentally "stuben" is a reference to rooms, since this is the stone one sands the floors with. These descriptions of various incarnations of limestone will be of varying importance to the taster, but to me they are a big deal, and a testament to the quality of Beurer's wines, in how they can be visualized in terms of their respective mineral composition, and to what extent the minerals dominate the structure of the wine and for how long - on the palate, and with bottle age - before they break up and yield to secondary fruits, or give way to more earthy aromas.
As to the wines, they are quite unique. They are certainly unusual as far as dry Riesling goes nowadays. There is not a trace of the severity of slate grown dry German riesling, nor of the overt exotic nature of ripeness found in Rheinhessen or Wachau, or of the size of typical Alsacian Rieslings with this much flavour. In fact they are unusual for *any* Riesling I am aware of because the expression of dirt they convey reminds me more of Chardonnay from Jura or Chablis than anything else. This was especially apparent in a couple of 2008s that Jochen opened at the conclusion of our visit, which is why I would like to start with those two wines, and then address the younger stuff, hopefully in some context.
The two 2008s were Kieselsandstein and Junges Schwaben, which comes from a 1 ha plot of 40 year old vines in Kiesel. Kieselsandstein is no longer primary but still quite fresh, with an indication of smoky, stony aromas beginning to fold and allowing secondary notes to emerge. It's very bouncy on the palate, dry, stony, phenolic, with a touch of CO2. I find it impressively delineated and honest in its purity. The structure is mostly that of a young wine, but the fruits are just starting to give in to secondary development, acquiring some warmth. The Junges Schwaben is quite a revelation. At its 12.5% abv, it maintains rigid minerality but is no longer monolithic. It's cool, delineated, with plenty of phenolic material on display, very well integrated into warm-fruited yet brisk media. JS is a ripe wine, but there are no peaches or any heat whatsoever in a slightly fuzzy, complex finish. Holding this wine in the glass reveals aromas of sea shell and coffee cake (typical Riesling, right?), an impression which finds its way onto the palate with wonderfully ripe yellow flavours on a finely grained chalky base, very much like an older Chablis. Unlike other wines here which are raised in stainless steel, JS comes from 1200 liter fuders.
On to younger wines, mostly 2011s. I should note that, generally speaking, 2011 as a vintage may have a softer side to it, compared to say 08, 10 and most likely 12 here. Which made the wines that much more impressive, given their balance, raciness, shape. I should also point out that fatboy and I scored an 09 Junges Schwaben in a restaurant later that evening, which was certainly the ripest version of the bottling I am yet to cross paths with, and yet, once again, it was shockingly cool and balanced in the finish. What's up with that.
Beurer's 2012 "basic riesling" (not sure what this will be bottles as) came from tank, and despite being slightly cloudy still, it gave me a hint of the insanity I would be experiencing for 4 days to follow, in the MSR, Nahe and Rheinhessen. This is just a wonderful vintage and this wine gave us flowers with fabulous red fruit sweetness on the nose; brilliant acidity, red fruit, sweet white flower perfume in midpalate, and an even brighter delineated finish, with green apple skins and red berries. 6gm RS, 12.3% abv. Did I mention red fruit?
2011 Gipskeuper , from Stettener Häder - starting out somewhat ripe and round on the nose, this is slightly peachy at first, but clearing up very quickly, giving way to bright yet spherical ripeness(*). There are saline minerals here. and a slightly superficial fatty palate feel, on top of a steely base. Cool, superbly balanced. Finish not yet defined by very discernible flavours but in stone and mineral, decent acidity and fine shape. It strikes me that the granularity of minerals here is just right for the fruit and the two will recede most harmoniously. 11.5% abv, 6gm RS, from an ecosystem that has lots of herbs and flowers in topsoil.
(*) this juice reminded me of 2010 Kiesel consumed earlier in the week. It too had peachy elements early on, but you would have never guessed an hour later - clean, tensile, racy.
2011 Schilfsandstein - Yellow fruit nose, floral sweetness less obvious than in Keuper, there are stalks at play. Mineral is larger scaled but also dusty in the tail of aromas. Power of ripeness and minerals on the palate, with very good acids, and a touch of quarz like inner mouth perfume. Tangy long finish. 12% abv, 4g RS. Usually takes a year longer than Keuper to show itself, says Jochen. This stupid note sounds like it needs points.
Same wine opened 1 day earlier: More mellow, rounded, even more yellow fruits. Sweeter, less chiseled, less delineated by acids.
Same wine opened 6 days earlier: Back to the smoky mineral top note and yet here mineral is decomposed into a nice mineral/fruit sauce mixture, more acid in finish again, quite long. (fb and Jochen preferred 1 day old version, but I liked this more).
2011 Stubensandstein - a most spherical but cool, yellow-fruited nose, which is just a touch sticky. More powerful and ripe on the palate, with a slight sensation of glycerol in midpalate, but an impeccably balanced finish. Nicely laced with white floral tones in the mouth. There is a lot more to looking at them big rocks than the power of suggestion. 13% abv, from south to SE exposure.
2011 Junges Schwaben. Multi-dimensional nose: front end is ripe, tail quite cool. Ironically you feel more sulfur on the palate here. Some stems used, 5-6 days on skins. Really fantastic quality of tannins. Plenty of baby fat, especially on entrance. This one sits and develops on the palate nicely. Best part is development of red fruit on the finish. 3-5gm RS.
One of these days or weeks: a visit to Andi Knauss and some random Holger Koch bottles.
As to the wines, they are quite unique. They are certainly unusual as far as dry Riesling goes nowadays. There is not a trace of the severity of slate grown dry German riesling, nor of the overt exotic nature of ripeness found in Rheinhessen or Wachau, or of the size of typical Alsacian Rieslings with this much flavour. In fact they are unusual for *any* Riesling I am aware of because the expression of dirt they convey reminds me more of Chardonnay from Jura or Chablis than anything else. This was especially apparent in a couple of 2008s that Jochen opened at the conclusion of our visit, which is why I would like to start with those two wines, and then address the younger stuff, hopefully in some context.
The two 2008s were Kieselsandstein and Junges Schwaben, which comes from a 1 ha plot of 40 year old vines in Kiesel. Kieselsandstein is no longer primary but still quite fresh, with an indication of smoky, stony aromas beginning to fold and allowing secondary notes to emerge. It's very bouncy on the palate, dry, stony, phenolic, with a touch of CO2. I find it impressively delineated and honest in its purity. The structure is mostly that of a young wine, but the fruits are just starting to give in to secondary development, acquiring some warmth. The Junges Schwaben is quite a revelation. At its 12.5% abv, it maintains rigid minerality but is no longer monolithic. It's cool, delineated, with plenty of phenolic material on display, very well integrated into warm-fruited yet brisk media. JS is a ripe wine, but there are no peaches or any heat whatsoever in a slightly fuzzy, complex finish. Holding this wine in the glass reveals aromas of sea shell and coffee cake (typical Riesling, right?), an impression which finds its way onto the palate with wonderfully ripe yellow flavours on a finely grained chalky base, very much like an older Chablis. Unlike other wines here which are raised in stainless steel, JS comes from 1200 liter fuders.
On to younger wines, mostly 2011s. I should note that, generally speaking, 2011 as a vintage may have a softer side to it, compared to say 08, 10 and most likely 12 here. Which made the wines that much more impressive, given their balance, raciness, shape. I should also point out that fatboy and I scored an 09 Junges Schwaben in a restaurant later that evening, which was certainly the ripest version of the bottling I am yet to cross paths with, and yet, once again, it was shockingly cool and balanced in the finish. What's up with that.
Beurer's 2012 "basic riesling" (not sure what this will be bottles as) came from tank, and despite being slightly cloudy still, it gave me a hint of the insanity I would be experiencing for 4 days to follow, in the MSR, Nahe and Rheinhessen. This is just a wonderful vintage and this wine gave us flowers with fabulous red fruit sweetness on the nose; brilliant acidity, red fruit, sweet white flower perfume in midpalate, and an even brighter delineated finish, with green apple skins and red berries. 6gm RS, 12.3% abv. Did I mention red fruit?
2011 Gipskeuper , from Stettener Häder - starting out somewhat ripe and round on the nose, this is slightly peachy at first, but clearing up very quickly, giving way to bright yet spherical ripeness(*). There are saline minerals here. and a slightly superficial fatty palate feel, on top of a steely base. Cool, superbly balanced. Finish not yet defined by very discernible flavours but in stone and mineral, decent acidity and fine shape. It strikes me that the granularity of minerals here is just right for the fruit and the two will recede most harmoniously. 11.5% abv, 6gm RS, from an ecosystem that has lots of herbs and flowers in topsoil.
(*) this juice reminded me of 2010 Kiesel consumed earlier in the week. It too had peachy elements early on, but you would have never guessed an hour later - clean, tensile, racy.
2011 Schilfsandstein - Yellow fruit nose, floral sweetness less obvious than in Keuper, there are stalks at play. Mineral is larger scaled but also dusty in the tail of aromas. Power of ripeness and minerals on the palate, with very good acids, and a touch of quarz like inner mouth perfume. Tangy long finish. 12% abv, 4g RS. Usually takes a year longer than Keuper to show itself, says Jochen. This stupid note sounds like it needs points.
Same wine opened 1 day earlier: More mellow, rounded, even more yellow fruits. Sweeter, less chiseled, less delineated by acids.
Same wine opened 6 days earlier: Back to the smoky mineral top note and yet here mineral is decomposed into a nice mineral/fruit sauce mixture, more acid in finish again, quite long. (fb and Jochen preferred 1 day old version, but I liked this more).
2011 Stubensandstein - a most spherical but cool, yellow-fruited nose, which is just a touch sticky. More powerful and ripe on the palate, with a slight sensation of glycerol in midpalate, but an impeccably balanced finish. Nicely laced with white floral tones in the mouth. There is a lot more to looking at them big rocks than the power of suggestion. 13% abv, from south to SE exposure.
2011 Junges Schwaben. Multi-dimensional nose: front end is ripe, tail quite cool. Ironically you feel more sulfur on the palate here. Some stems used, 5-6 days on skins. Really fantastic quality of tannins. Plenty of baby fat, especially on entrance. This one sits and develops on the palate nicely. Best part is development of red fruit on the finish. 3-5gm RS.
One of these days or weeks: a visit to Andi Knauss and some random Holger Koch bottles.
Thanks for the write up, very evocative.
I'm hardly an expert and have limited exposure, but this summarizes my view of Baden rieslings in general. And while I haven't name-checked Jura or Chablis, I have thought of them as Muscadet-ish flavor-wise.
As to the wines, they are quite unique. They are certainly unusual as far as dry Riesling goes nowadays. There is not a trace of the severity of slate grown dry German riesling, nor of the overt exotic nature of ripeness found in Rheinhessen or Wachau, or of the size of typical Alsacian Rieslings with this much flavour. In fact they are unusual for *any* Riesling I am aware of because the expression of dirt they convey reminds me more of Chardonnay from Jura or Chablis than anything else.
I'm hardly an expert and have limited exposure, but this summarizes my view of Baden rieslings in general. And while I haven't name-checked Jura or Chablis, I have thought of them as Muscadet-ish flavor-wise.
U
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originally posted by Rahsaan:
I'm hardly an expert and have limited exposure, but this summarizes my view of Baden rieslings in general. And while I haven't name-checked Jura or Chablis, I have thought of them as Muscadet-ish flavor-wise.
My entire "expertise" on the subject is contained in the post.
We are speaking of the best Baden rieslings here, I am sure. As to what percentage of the lot that constitutes, I've no idea, but that bit may be similar to Muscadet.
georg lauer
georg lauer
I am glad you liked the wines so much, by far not all of my friends in the states find them as appealing as I do. Often people find them too austere, I guess because they expect something similar to a Mosel Kabinett. Kieselsandstein is usually my favorite, with the perfect mix of crystalline freshness and a bit of umpff. I especially love 08 and 10, based on your report I am excited to try 2012 this week.
But: Since you are talking about what is Heimat for me, please do not call this Baden. Stetten is in the heart of Wuerttemberg (the wines could also not be any more different from the Rieslings of Baden). And to nitpick more, Stetten is not south of Kernen, but is one of the villages composing the hybrid town of Kernen, which was created by bureaucrats in the seventies. Both winery and vineyards are in Kernen-Stetten.
But: Since you are talking about what is Heimat for me, please do not call this Baden. Stetten is in the heart of Wuerttemberg (the wines could also not be any more different from the Rieslings of Baden). And to nitpick more, Stetten is not south of Kernen, but is one of the villages composing the hybrid town of Kernen, which was created by bureaucrats in the seventies. Both winery and vineyards are in Kernen-Stetten.
georg lauer
georg lauer
originally posted by .sasha:
We are speaking of the best Baden rieslings here, I am sure. As to what percentage of the lot that constitutes, I've no idea, but that bit may be similar to Muscadet.
Did you try any Silvaner from the foothills of the jurassic mountains south of Stuttgart? They to me are even more reminiscent of a good Muscadet.
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With all the job openings at WA, I wanted to introduce just enough factual errors to get on their short list.
Indeed. But I did not do that in my original post; I figured the esteemed gentlemen who were kind enough to comment last night knew something about traditionally accepted regional wine references which I did not.
Thanks for this. I had realized Stetten was in the Kernen postal code, thus a very clumsy attempt to convey the fact by calling it a "hamlet".
originally posted by georg lauer:
But: Since you are talking about what is Heimat for me, please do not call this Baden. Stetten is in the heart of Wuerttemberg (the wines could also not be any more different from the Rieslings of Baden).
Indeed. But I did not do that in my original post; I figured the esteemed gentlemen who were kind enough to comment last night knew something about traditionally accepted regional wine references which I did not.
And to nitpick more, Stetten is not south of Kernen, but is one of the villages composing the hybrid town of Kernen, which was created by bureaucrats in the seventies. Both winery and vineyards are in Kernen-Stetten.
Thanks for this. I had realized Stetten was in the Kernen postal code, thus a very clumsy attempt to convey the fact by calling it a "hamlet".
U
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originally posted by georg lauer:
Did you try any Silvaner from the foothills of the jurassic mountains south of Stuttgart? They to me are even more reminiscent of a good Muscadet.
is that what's planted right along the roads as you drive into Stuttgart from the south? Quite a sight.