Sponti

originally posted by SFJoe:
originally posted by MLipton:
originally posted by Salil Benegal:
We need an Assmannshausen Spontistinker.
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Communing with Sankt Urban in Assmannshausen on a hot August afternoon:
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Were your prayers answered?
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Nope. They still have Spätburgunder planted there ( though thankfully no aerial tramride over the vineyards as in Rüdesheim).

Mark Lipton
 
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
originally posted by SFJoe:
It seems to be a German usage. To me it means something like, "aromas associated with indigenous fermentations, especially thiols." See, for instance, young Prum.
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And this, in particular, is interesting because I always thought young Prum smelled that way due to the dose of sulphur, even though it is also (usually, I understand) spontaneously fermented.
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Katharina Prum addressed this very issue in one of Levi's podcasts, to which I happened to be listening this morning. Apparently she is asked frequently whether JJ Prum uses more sulphur than other Mosel producers, and she went so far as to ask several of her Mosel colleagues how much sulphur they typically add. Although she did not provide the numerical data, Katharina reported that JJ Prum generally uses either less than or about the same amount of sulphur as other producers nearby. She noted that in young Riesling sponti aromas often resemble those resulting from sulphur and are often mistaken therefor, thus the frequency of the questions about the amount of sulphur usually added at JJ Prum. I stand corrected, and better informed.

ETA: Of course, I still remain unsure how I should distinguish the sponti and sulphur aromas in young Riesling without resorting to information not generated by my own senses.
 
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
originally posted by SFJoe:
It seems to be a German usage. To me it means something like, "aromas associated with indigenous fermentations, especially thiols." See, for instance, young Prum.
Click to expand...

And this, in particular, is interesting because I always thought young Prum smelled that way due to the dose of sulphur, even though it is also (usually, I understand) spontaneously fermented.
Click to expand...

Katharina Prum addressed this very issue in one of Levi's podcasts, to which I happened to be listening this morning. Apparently she is asked frequently whether JJ Prum uses more sulphur than other Mosel producers, and she went so far as to ask several of her Mosel colleagues how much sulphur they typically add. Although she did not provide the numerical data, Katharina reported that JJ Prum generally uses either less than or about the same amount of sulphur as other producers nearby. She noted that in young Riesling sponti aromas often resemble those resulting from sulphur and are often mistaken therefor, thus the frequency of the questions about the amount of sulphur usually added at JJ Prum. I stand corrected, and better informed.

ETA: Of course, I still remain unsure how I should distinguish the sponti and sulphur aromas in young Riesling without resorting to information not generated by my own senses.
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Thanks for mentioning this part of the Prum interview. It led me to speculate about whether indigenous yeast byproducts may cause some of the aromas characterized as reductive in red Burgundies.
 
originally posted by Michael Lewis:

Apparently she is asked frequently whether JJ Prum uses more sulphur than other Mosel producers, and she went so far as to ask several of her Mosel colleagues how much sulphur they typically add. Although she did not provide the numerical data, Katharina reported that JJ Prum generally uses either less than or about the same amount of sulphur as other producers nearby.
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I'm a big Katharina fan, but this really doesn't tell us very much, especially when she doesn't list the names of her colleagues. Sulfur use varies pretty widely, it seems, from producers as different as Selbach-Oster, Willi Schaefer, The Thanisches, the other assorted Prüms, the Haags, Richter, etc. Not to mention the many lower-tier producers in Wehlen, Graach and Bernkastel that we've never heard of because no one wants to export the wines. I'm sure she's using much less sulfur than some random house that caters exclusively to the Dutch tourists in Bernkastel.
 
You might have the factual information to reach your own, possibly different, conclusions about the extent of sulphur use. Me, I am stuck with the limited information that is publicly available. Katharina characterized JJ Prum's use of sulphur as surprisingly less than some of her neighbors, and roughly equal to others. As you said, it depends which neighbors she is talking about, but her statement would be quite disingenuous if in reality JJ Prum used more sulphur than many surrounding estates and only less sulphur than a few of the houses of lesser repute.
 
originally posted by Michael Lewis:
You might have the factual information to reach your own, possibly different, conclusions about the extent of sulphur use. Me, I am stuck with the limited information that is publicly available. Katharina characterized JJ Prum's use of sulphur as surprisingly less than some of her neighbors, and roughly equal to others. As you said, it depends which neighbors she is talking about, but her statement would be quite disingenuous if in reality JJ Prum used more sulphur than many surrounding estates and only less sulphur than a few of the houses of lesser repute.
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Dr Tyrell of Karthäuserhof spontaneously (ha ha) offered up that very same view at a dinner on Monday. Saying, in effect, the she uses much less sulfur than many accuse her of and less than some other very good houses.
 
What's the documented record on wild yeast fermentation giving off sulfury smells, which could be mistakenly attributed to either excessive SO2 or reduction?
 
originally posted by Ian Fitzsimmons:
What's the documented record on wild yeast fermentation giving off sulfury smells, which could be mistakenly attributed to either excessive SO2 or reduction?
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Sulfury smells and reduction go together very well. Excess SO2 is also reductive, so these variables are very much not independent.

No time for more.
 
The point is the attribution of such smells to reduction, in wines fermented by wild yeast, may be erroneous.

In her interview, Katherina Prum was seeking to explain the prominent sulfury smell people often say they find in her Weingut's products. She felt she'd reasonably eliminated excessive dosing with SO2 as a cause, because her casual survey found Prum does not dose excessively, relative to its peers. She mentioned some chemical analysis that has been done, which tentatively allowed the possibility that the aroma could be a by-product of wild yeast fermentation.

If wild yeast fermentation is actually a cause of sulfury smells in Prum's wines, it might also be the cause of sulfury smells in wines from other regions made with wild yeasts.
 
This is a complex subject. I have a variety of issues with how you've framed things, but no time now.
 
This is a complex subject. I have a variety of issues with how you've framed things, but no time now.
 
This is a complex subject. I have a variety of issues with how you've framed things, but no time now.
 
This is a complex subject. I have a variety of issues with how you've framed things, but no time now.
 
This is a complex subject. I have a variety of issues with how you've framed things, but no time now.
 
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